Palmisano Winds it Up

Trial transcripts are available on the Criminal Case page linked in the banner at the top.  Agent Palmisano’s testimony is included in two parts:   Direct examination and Cross Examination with Redirect.

After discussing False Prophet Ronald Weinland’s credit card account activity consisting of both church and personal charges and which was paid in full each month using funds transferred to personal accounts from church accounts, Agent Palmisano discussed other transactions which were determined to be income to Weinland. These included:
— Insurance payments for the Weinlands and their children
— Paying off the loan for Jeremy’s BMW
— Donna Kautz repaid  a church loan via a check which was deposited into a personal account
— A vehicle paid for by the church was sold and the proceeds put into a personal account.

During the course of Agent Palmisano’s testimony, annual amounts for each of the following were given:
— Transfers from Church Accounts to Weinland’s personal accounts which included funds to pay off credit card balances and salary amounts
— Church expenses paid from Weinland’s personal credit cards
— Salary and parsonage allowances reported on Weinland’s tax returns
— Net Unreported Income
From the above I calculated what the other income and adjustments benefiting Weinland were.

The testimony also covered two checks totaling $290,000 written by Weinland during 2007 from a personal account and negotiated by him at UBS in Switzerland to deposit in his Swiss bank accounts there.

During the cross examination, the defense challenged Agent Palmisano’s expertise and training for analyzing church transactions. Agent Palmisano did make use of other resources within the IRS when it came to technical questions concerning tax matters for religious organizations.  In the end it came down to common sense judgments along with input from church members and Audra to determine which would be church expenses.  Palmisano gave Ron the benefit of the doubt in some cases, for example allowing as church expenses his additions to his wine collection if purchases were about the same time as a holy day.  I expect that in reality local elders buy a cheap bottle of wine for the small amount consumed by their group during the Passover ceremony.

The defense challenged Agent Palmisano’s inclusion of the $290,000 deposited in the Swiss bank account as part of the $372,023 she determined as net unreported income in 2007. The defense pointed out that Johnny Harrell was given signatory authority over the Swiss bank account in a power of attorney executed June 2, 2004 which was a year and a half after the account was opened. Agent Palmisano was not told of this power of attorney during the investigation and didn’t learn of it until just prior to the trial.

There were a number of objections during an exchange concerning the 2002 sermon in which Weinland stated he was opening his Swiss bank account . Agent Palmisano did not listen to the sermon until the investigation was concluded and Ron’s attorneys presented a transcript. There was no cassette tape of a direct recording sent out as was the PKG custom of the time. This sermon was not posted on the PKG website until 2010 and from the quality was most likely a recording by a member at the other end of a telephone conference line.

The defense also asked Agent Palmisano about the $400,296 wire transfer in December of 2008, which was the return of Swiss funds Ron mentioned in December of 2008. Agent Palmisano did not include this figure in offsetting Weinland’s unreported income since it was wired directly to a church account and did not go through a personal account. This amount is more than the $290,000 transactions during the period for 2004 through 2008 for which Weinland was charged. But it is still much less than the $290,000 plus the $300,000 I inferred from other statements and currency fluctuations had been used to open the account. Or still less than the $490,000 figure arrived at by adding Ron’s claim that he was opening the account with $200,000 and adding the $290,000 deposited in 2007. There was discussion of another $86,000 transferred in January of 2009. This transaction was after the period for which Ron was being investigated. And also after the time frame Ron stated in his December of 2008 sermon that the money would be transferred back to the US.

The total credit card expenditures in the categories given in the prior post over the 5-year period was $593,584.14 of which $103,174.96 was airfare for people besides Ron’s travel for church business. Most of this airfare was for Laura to globetrot with Ron, but quite a bit was for other family members to travel.  Excluding all of this airfare, that’s $490,409 in personal credit card expenditures in 5 years. Compare that to the gross income reported on Weinland’s tax returns for the same period of $396,276, and that’s credit card expenses alone exceeding reported income by an average of around $20,000 for each of the years of the investigation.

On top of that would be other payments from checking accounts such as mortgage and car loan payments. Deducting the $290,000 deposited into the Swiss bank account and $95,000 for Laura’s travel from $1.053 million of net unreported income still leaves $668K  of unreported income over a 5-year period.

That’s $668K excluding the $290,000 deposited in the Swiss bank account in 2007 and airfare for Laura’s travel and that of Weinland’s other family members which was part of the defense cross examination.  Ron would have PKG members believe that it’s all just a misunderstanding about the Swiss bank accounts and Laura’s travel.

38 Comments

  • Whisper01 says:

    No misunderstanding, he stole the money, it’s truely that simple.
    Prooving that statement is rather complex, but the sum in the end is rather easy, he stole it.
    wRONg probably thinks he’s still right about all this, laws be damned, and that he is doing the right thing.
    His good and wise teacher did it and everyone reveres him right?
    Tick tock wRONg, your hourglass is almost empty as the sands of your time fall…

  • Atrocious says:

    I found it interesting that the salary per tax return and the parsonage allowance were the same amount. What stupidity.

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    The PKG are giving a CRIMINAL millions of dollars…serves them right for their arrogance and stupidity…

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    Oh and BTW:

    Today is the day that old Blue Tassels said would be the Return of Christ and a Day of Wrath where all us sinners who don’t wear blue tassels are punished for ignoring Zerubabbel the 300 pound bearded ballerina…

    Surprise, surprise…another false prophet’s fake, ignorant ramblings not coming to pass…

  • J says:

    Zerubabbel? Hard to say. I prefer Tinkerbell.

  • Jocko says:

    Avalo, How soon should we expect a new YouTube video from the 300 pound blue tassel bearded ballerina with a new date for Christ’s non-return?

    Wonder why his last few videos show text on the screen instead of Zerubabbel himself in all 300 pounds of flesh. Could it be he’s eating too well for it to truly be the end times?

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    With Zerubabbel it is hard to say…almost guaranteed he will post something that explains how he was correct…just that there is now a fourth tier to the sign of Jonah or that he forgot to carry the 5 in his calculations or something…it is the same old song and dance…noone is ever a false prophet…

    1. God is testing…
    2. The full meaning of the prophecy is still being revealed…
    3. This is now a phase of the prophecy…
    4. blah blah blah

    Just another fat, lonely white guy who imagines he is important to avoid the reality of his ordinary existence…

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    I seriously don’t get it…

    why is it that being ordinary, or being an average citizen is so terrifying to these people? How did they come to believe that what is normal for the majority of humanity for thousands of years is not good enough for them? Apart fromt he miseries of war and poverty, etc, life was never a giant parade for anyone, including the rich and famous. All lives have their highs and lows and no one gets out of this life “alive” as they say (unless you believe in reincarnation). Why must Ron or Zerubabbel waste their lives playing God-man when Reality is so much more fulfilling? Get a pet, join a club, learn to paint…geez…it beats lying any day of the week…

    But…at the end of the day, Zerubabbel chooses to act like an imbecile and thus I respond in kind by laughing at him…

  • Rterlecki says:

    I thought I would be happy with the asshole in jail but not put his whole family in jail! FIVE more days u better have your last good super on the poor people of PKG. did I ever say I hate this guy and family .

  • Jan says:

    Well, tomorrow will be his swan song. . . .

  • gullible says:

    I doubt Zerubabbel is anywhere near the success ron has acomplished. ron had doubled his revenue from 2006 to 2007, then tripled his revenue from 2007 to 2008. No wonder he oft mentioned of his amazement of how a small group through ron’s god can achieve so much (compared to other much bigger groups) making them feel as if they are important as ron’s god is using them. ron was actually admiring about his personal ability in parting people from their wealth to the to the MAX – until their entire wealth is gone.

    Payments to weinland in 2008 was $2,506,196. If say at least 10% were in cash, that’s a nice bonus going to ron’s pocket.

    ron’s defense should have mentioned that his client was doing a great favour for the economy (especially for Google and travel industry), with the increased church expense prior and at the start of the GFC. ron had tripled church expenses from 2006 to 2007, then quintupled his revenue from 2007 to 2008.

  • Velvet says:

    ….those numbers for 2008!!! WOW. Any wonder Rotten Ronnie felt the need to stamp out us “mockers” as quickly as possible! That’s…yeah, I had noooooooooo idea the numbers were that high, around the same time there were six or seven of us on the Internet, trying to take the PKG down…..Heh, and I was unemployed at the time!!

    That’s…yeah….that’s just….I mean, if that’s how much WEINLAND was bringing in, can you imagine how much the other bozos are raking it in, hand over fist?!?! Especially the ones that force their ministers to tithe…..

  • AnonPKG says:

    I don’t know what to believe anymore. Please help me. I have been with PKG for a little while now. Thanks to google search I have found fantastic things I would not have known about being in the Church.

  • AnonPKG, I know what you mean: I’ve been through the same experience.

    Here is what I have found: The further you get from any Armstrongist influences, the better off you will be. The leaders mess with your head and you become confused. I found that once I accepted the fact that what they said was nonsense by accepting fact instead of their opinion, my head began to clear. Armstrongism is nothing more than confusing mental noise. You need to find some quiet away from the jangling chaos of mentally unbalanced deceptive contrievances.

    My suggestion: Give yourself a vacation from it. Stop reading the publications and stop listening to the nonsense. Clear your mind. Let peace descend.

    Once you have clarity of thought and have distanced yourself from corrupting influences, you can begin to rebuild your life.

    “Shadow Syndromes” by Dr. John Ratey may be of help.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Anon PKG, I left in January 2009 when it became evident to me Ronnie wasn’t who he said he was. It was a very bitter pill to swallow. I never ever thought however, that he was in it for the ‘paycheck’. The evidence however proves otherwise. He is truly an evil man.

    If you want help, first thing I would do is leave. Leave now, leave today. To admit that YOU were wrong in following Ron although painful, excruciating – it is also liberating. A time of soul searching, healing, and many other emotions is something you will and must go through. Your whole belief system now needs review. Take your time, be gentle on yourself.

    We are here for you as best we can be.

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    AnonPKG:

    If you truly are a member of the PKG then congratulations, you have just made a REALLY smart move. You are actually investigating what is being said about Ronald Weinland. As you read further and investigate further you will discover several things, things that Ronald Weinland does NOT want you to read or know:

    1. What Mike has been posting on this blog is true. NOT because Mike says it is, but because it is documented: either in the court or in Ron’s own books and sermons where he lies and contradicts himself.

    2. By coming here you will be welcomed and comforted in a safe “space” where you can talk about your doubts and fears. God is NOT going to hate you or reject you for feeling the doubt and confusion you are now feeling. In fact, that doubt is about Ronald Weinland, NOT GOD, and is ACTUALLY what is going to SAVE you when you come to fully understand the evil that has been done to you by Weinland himself.

    3. Your desire to follow God and your following Ron are two DIFFERENT things. The Bible itself says to test all things and hold fast to what is GOOD. What Ron is saying is NOT good, what Jesus Christ says IS good…when you begin to see how Weinland has been lying to you, you will be able to TRULY follow God…

    4. Ask yourself: Is God’s Way one of fear and confusion? If God is good and just, do you AnonPKG need to FEAR the future and the End Times? Is God FEAR based or LOVE based? If you want to know LOVE, it was jesus who repeated;y said be ye not afraid…Ronald Weinland has taught you cowering, fear, and Doomsday theology. Jesus taught peace and fearlessness. Which do you personally REALLY want? fear or peace? Ron offers only fear, no matter how well he disguises it.

    5. I am an atheist and reject Christianity. But that doesn’t mean I am your enemy or anyone here who believes differently is your enemy. Ron has taught you that we are ignorant and hate God’s ways. but ask yourself: if that were true, then why have I, Avalokiteshvara, encouraged you to SEEK GOD, and discover the true words of Jesus for yourself? isn’t that “against” what I believe? As a TRUE atheist I don’t reject the possibility of God, I merely reject the evidence I have been presented. BUT…I have freedom of choice, the very freedom of choice God allows and encourages in the Bible. With Ron there is NO choice. It is either HIS word or no word at all. jesus never said that. he said ALL who believe in me are saved. ALL. Not catholics, not Presbyterians, not pentecostals, ALL. Even a Roman centurion who had faith in Christ, who was NOT even a Christian or gathered with other Christians was praised by jesus for having the requisite faith in him. I am not a Christian, BUT that doesn’t mean I am “against” what is ‘good’. Ronald Weinland is AGAINST what is good if it conflicts with his desire for authority, money, and power. He must use titles and make (false) prophecies to get what he wants…but jesus offered ALL, everything YOU need, through his sacrifice. Think about it. Who benefits from your faith, YOU, or Ronald Weinland $$$$$$$? Do God’s prophets take luxury vacations and buy underwear at Victoria’s Secret? Is that the ‘sackcloth of humility”?

    You are not alone, nor are you in danger of losing your place in the Kingdom of God. In fact, you just took a major step CLOSER to it…

  • jack635 says:

    Good comment Avalo.

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    Thanks. If I can help AnonPKG in any way, I would hope I can. He/she has the opportunity to walk away from Ron. I never got the chance to ‘walk away’ from Herbert W. Armstrong, so I would hate for AnonPKG to have to feel any of what I had to go through. Speaking of false prophets…

    Friday, November 9th has passed and surprise! no Day of Wrath and return of Christ as Zerubabbel the 300 pound bearded ballerina has “prophesied”. Now the “true sign” of God’s word being true is Zerubabbel’s calling for the restoration of the 30 day month based on “the luminaries”! This demand for a 30 day month proves that He, Zerubabbel is a prophet of God and blah blah blah.

    First there is a sign, now there is an inward sign, now it is a calendar…Looks like Weinland and Zerubabbel are running out of things to blame their own insanity on…

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Avalo says : Friday, November 9th has passed and surprise!

    Lets put it this way, if you were invited to a dinner party, with twelve other guys, and the food and wine were graciously received all night, the tab was taken care of, by a guy at the end of the table called Judas, you ended up feeling crook ( by the end of the night ), and found yourself in the garden, under an olive tree, someone called the cops, your best mate ( Pete ) would’nt back you up , and you were taken away, and ended up in court, two days later, charged with something ya did’nt do, then taken out, beaten to a pulp, and then nailed to a cross, ( and left to die for the sins of the world ) ……… would you go back ? I sure as hell would’nt …….. It would take me more than a couple ‘o thousand years to forgive s&it like that ? No one goes to a dinner party expecting that !
    So Zeru…… what ever ya call yourself this week, Jesus just aint comin’ back for you, ‘ol Bubble-head, or anyone else…….. I’m sure he got used to ‘ ordering in ‘ , by now ? 😀

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    Oh dear sweet Budgie, you keep on expecting someone like Zerubabbel to understand logic and rational thinking? This is the same guy that forbade his members to take off their shoes for three days before Jesus was supposed to return in July! Seriously, I am not even joking…we were all supposed to keep our shoes on…and wear blue tassels!

    You are trying to reason with a guy who was kicked out of both Greece and Israel, wears a towel on his head, sports blue tassels, and thinks God talks to him directly! LOL!

  • Anon says:

    AnonPKG : it is the same for me

    – It was ruining me mentally the way the church is run on fear and total control. I do not mean a healthy fear of God, the correct meaning being ‘awe and respect’ and fear to do something unkind – that is a healthy attitude. I am talking about the unhealthy fear created in a high demand church which leads to members being very undermining, backstabbing, gossip, jealousy, trying to be sherifs and heroes, constantly afraid they will commit unpardonable sin, afraid to accomplish anything!

    – Those who left because Ron’s prophesies did not come true are discarded like they are worthless. All the previous friendship and fellowship means nothing. they have to be dumped because satan kidnapped them. Again, not a healthy balance where you avoid people who are truly harmful, the way murderers and rapists are put away. I am talking about trying to hold people hostage so they come around and ‘repent’ which adds even more harm to the person – not Jesus’ behaviour, it is cult behaviour designed to protect the cult and ‘stop loss’

    – The fact that NOT ONE of Ron’s prophesies came true. NOT ONE. Lookup Deuteronomy 18:22. Then remember Ron’s book where the EVENTS AND TIMING are the proof. Why throw away your life, be tremendously restricted, lose your wife and children, lose your house, drop out of school, lose your carreer, based on what a human in the church says is the law, only to have friends severed when more leave after 2013 when nothing happens, or you leave because too many red flags become obvious … then you have thrown away everything.

    – Hypocrisy, members say they love God but treat people like poop. In public, to family, to fellow brethren if someone has a problem in life – because they love god they are going plunge a knife in your back.

    Anyway, a bit of reading fully revealed all the qualifications of a cult and the deeds done in Armstrong churches are horrific. It resembles more medieval Catholic Nottingham style rulership where you buy your way into heaven based on fear. And Ron did say to try our farm equipment before you buy it, like a tractor, well that includes a look under the bonnet to examine the motor, kick the tyres to make sure she’s solid, and so on.

    This blog has members that are bitter toward Ron and speak harshly venting their pain, and that is their business, and to a degree healthy to vent pain. But do not base decision on that. But this blog is also a look ‘under the bonnet’ of the organization which is ugly and shows little evidence of God working here. So I decided to leave. I love God’s way of life but this group is harmful like the other COGs. This is only my opinion and experience. Please decide for yourself. And do not fear God the way you fear Men. The God of this vast universe is LOVE and that is why in the end he will take care of you, and if there is a place where he is truly working we will all have a REAL chance given us. But in this age of man there are scammers everywhere and megalomania everywhere and love of money everywhere – in Ron’s own words we are responsible for our own choices.

  • AnonPKG says:

    I will consider your advice 2 everybody who replied. It is a life changing decision I must make. I will continue my journey into a spiritual connection with our creator. It is so difficult when you have family and other things to worry about. At the end of the day I pray I am in the true church. Thanks guys, I will continue studying my bible and continue my prayers. *I will wait*

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I understand AnonPKG, it took me a while to make the decision. Just try and be gentle on yourself, and keep an open mind. Thinking of you.

  • AnonPKG says:

    Thanks Kirrily, but how can I keep an open mind when I am not supposed to ? As the devil is waiting to leap into an “open mind” as our pastor says?? That is close to impossible … I am reading my own comment right now thinking I sound a little crazy?!?! I thinks I am officially mental right now.grrr.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I thought you would think that but I had already clicked submit! There are a lot of things that I didn’t realise had ‘happened’ to me, to the way I thought, until I left. It also took me years to understand how it all happened. I still don’t understand it all, but no longer care. I really feel for you. I guess the proof of who Ron says he is is now obvious. What you DO with that knowledge however, is not so clear cut as one would think. I guess you will get real relief when you make your decision one way or another. But you already have made your decision, you just have yet to execute it – THAT is the hard part. 🙁

  • gullible says:

    Sorry, typo on my last comment – “ron had tripled church expenses from 2006 to 2007, then quintupled his revenue from 2007 to 2008.”
    Should have been – “ron had tripled church expenses from 2006 to 2007, then quintupled it (i.e. church expenses again) from 2007 to 2008.”

    I don’t quite understand why Zerubabbel used short time frames when he prophesies, which really sets himself to be flagged as a false prophet quickly (which is a good thing I suppose as then we don’t have to wait too long!!). Short time frames, doesn’t give much chance for words to spread in the world of who he is. Perhaps, it’s because he wants to use a different selling angle – ron takes the long timeframe (3 1/2 years, plus additional 1 year), so Zerubabbel feels he needs to beat that.

    Or perhaps, he wants to precede the Mayan’s prophecy of 21 Dec 2012, and use the hype to his advantage, before it dies out after the 21 Dec 2012.

    Either way, Zerubabbel failed to win the award to be the first prophet who got THE timing right on his first go, as this is now his second failed attempt. ron was already disqualified on 17th April 2008 and then again on the 27th May 2012 – but let’s give every aspiring prophet 3 chances in the same vein as the 3-strike-rule before you’re fired. OOPS, sorry … I don’t think this is possible, as I can’t find anything specifically written in the Bible to allow this.
    However, if they admit they are a false prophet and asked for forgiveness, then it’s a start. It may take a long time, but at least healing can begin to all the victims. To make healing even faster, they (false prophets) might like to emulate what Zacchaeus, a chief tax collector who climbed up into a sycamore tree to see Jesus – give back from anyone fourfold what you’ve taken.

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    ANON-PKG:

    Your fear is natural. You are not mental or crazy. In fact, your fear and confusion are signs that your mind is now trying to save you from the lies you were told. They call it cognitive dissonance in psychology, as you mind is trying to reconcile two opposing ideas in your head: that Ronald Weinland is a Man of God, and that he also has falsely prophesied, lied to the government and is now a convicted criminal. Your mind is finding it hard to keep on believing things in the same way you did before because there are small thoughts growing in your heart. “What if…”, and “But how could X be, when Ron said Y?”…These kinds of thoughts are what will make you scared and confused. You are going to feel unstable, like nothing in life is “certain” anymore, and that the problem is YOU…that you don;t have the right kind of faith to keep these thoughts away, or that Satan is bombarding your mind to get you away from the church now that time is so short (May 2013). But I have really good news: The place your mind and soul are trying to get to is not a place without God, against God, or against “his Church’. What you are feeling is NOT rebellion and hate for God…it is LOVE calling to you. What do I mean by that?

    You. like other good people, want to please God and do good things. To know that your life was not meaningless and that you will go to heaven when you die. These are good things, to want meaning/love/God in Life. Your desire to be good and do good is that LOVE of goodness in heart. That LOVE is now starting to fight within you to keep doing good…and it is starting to speak to you about what Ron says. Ron is doing things that are NOT GOOD. You know it, but you don’t want to believe it because you are scared of the consequences. That to question Ron is the same as questioning God. So you try and believe that several things are going on, things that Ron wants you to believe:

    1. He is innocent and this is persecution against him for being God’s True Servant.
    2. His failed prophecies are part of God’s Plan.
    3. That you are being tested and all this is a test to see if you will turn away from Ron/God.
    4. If you hold on just a little longer and believe harder, Ron will be proven right.

    This is what EVERYONE who has ever started to doubt Herbert W. Armstrong or Joseph Tkach or Ronald Weinland has felt. This is EXACTLY what Ronald Weinland hopes you will believe so he can keep on spending YOUR money on art, trips, wine, cars, houses for his kids, and diamonds/expensive panties for Laura.

    DON’T BE AFRAID of what you are feeling…it is NORMAL, it is OK, it is HEALTHY, and it is what is going to LEAD you to God by SAVING you from a FALSE PROPHET named Ronald Weinland…

    So don;t worry about making any big moves just yet…be patient and forgiving with yourself…and remember you are NOT stupid, bad, or alone…

    …you are being saved…

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    BTW: here are the ramblings of another False Prophet who calls himself Zerubabbel. He announced this a few weeks ago after his first Jesus Returns prophecy failed in July:

    “This day (Sept. 20th/2012) is the anniversary of our Messiah’s birth and this year it is serving as the bench mark of the final 50 day count to the day of YEHWEH’s vengeance.”

    1. This is his second failed prophecy about Jesus.

    2. His EXACT timeline was wrong, just like his first EXACT timeline was wrong.

    Sound familiar?

  • AnonPKG says:

    Hi Avalo – I have been wondering who this Zerubabbel is. I couldn’t be bothered looking that up but wondered. I am not going to deny ALL your key points you said –
    1. He is innocent and this is persecution against him for being God’s True Servant.
    2. His failed prophecies are part of God’s Plan.
    3. That you are being tested and all this is a test to see if you will turn away from Ron/God.
    4. If you hold on just a little longer and believe harder, Ron will be proven right.
    are all what my battle is about right now, trying to hold onto it because I will have nothing/no one left if I left. It is so hard to explain the thoughts running through my head. I feel like you have a point and most of what you say is how I feel but I am massively “afraid” of the consequences + the fear of what may happen in/to my life Is uncertain anyway, At this point of my life I will have no option but to wait. I trust in God and feel like betrayal is happening in my life because of this way I feel. I feel like I am betraying the Lord God just because of how I am feeling. I think this is wrong and need to hold on to hope at least… I will have nothing If I ever left PKG. That is all right now.

  • Anon says:

    >>Thanks Kirrily, but how can I keep an open mind when I am not supposed to ? As the devil is waiting to leap into an “open mind” as our pastor says??

    Here is the flip side of that coin … evil deeds have been committed by people who were very sure of themselves and could not have enough of an open mind. Galileo was jailed for figuring out that the earth was round. I’m sure the Catholics who judged him were convinced that his open mind let Satan in so he could destroy their accurate and unbiased understanding that the earth was the center of the universe. And that Galileo’s “science” was the work of the devil designed to destroy God’s own Roman Catholic Church. You can probably find many examples of people who are punished for being open minded. You can also probably find many examples of people who abuse being open minded and come to some crazy conclusions.

    That said, it is a core mind control technique of a cult. All cults do this, they have to – “don’t listen to anything besides what we tell you or horrible things will happen to you”. If they didn’t do this they wouldn’t last long because the fraud would fall apart because people would get more information and viewpoints. If you listen only to Ron, you think him disappearing next week is only because of a slight misunderstanding over a swiss account. In reality it is hypocrisy for having done exactly what Jesus threw moneychangers out of his temple because of. If it was a misunderstanding and he didn’t mean to be a thief, he does simply terrible at bookkeeping, he could have talked about it rather than desperately try to cover it up. David did something much worse and confessed and repented when confronted … it ate him up inside. That is not what Ron did – he went straight to his Babylonian law experts and tried to game the system to get off easy while hiding the situation from members who found out anyway.

    Third point, I think the Great Creator of the Universe can withstand a little reasoning and scrutiny. The God of this Universe that is responsible for math and science and a thirteen billion year old universe can’t handle a human thinking? Lies. Even the apostles were “constantly making sure of these things to make sure they were so”. God is able to reveal himself when He chooses and God has done so when it is important. Look at Moses showing Pharoh the signs. Look at Jesus, even the apostles were given power of miracles and healing so that people would know this ‘new way’ was from God. During Jesus baptism God put on a show to prove that man was from God. But he has not chosen to back Ron in any way whatsoever. Given these historical examples, then given that great earthquakes were supposed to level whole countries, and armies were supposed to invade, and nuclear weapons were supposed to fly everywhere, and finally space aliens were supposed to come down and they were really the 144000, don’t you think at least ONE thing that Ron said would have actually come true? The slow death of his ‘mockers’? The millions coming for baptism because continents splitting open leave no room for doubt? The asian hoards? The US no longer being a country? Anything??

    AnonPKG: I don’t wnat to tell anyone what to do. But educate yourself on how cults control minds. Then decide for yourself! These things may not matter to you. The church may be a good place for you to worship and you may be happy there and it might not matter. It is not our place to steal that from you. Or you might see the dangers and harms and decide to leave. We can’t tell you what to do, we can only share with you what we think and experienced. When I became concerned about what I was seeing in the church, and looked into it, I saw that all of the mind control techniques that cults use are in use in the church. All of the red flags turned out to be among those techniques. Could not ignore how wierd people were acting. How to tell what is from God and what is not? I don’t know. But God is genuine and something that is not genuine cannot be from God and we are supposed to flee from it. And I don’t think God plays games, but I also don’t think God is a bully and psycho. Mike DDTFA, Avalo, Kirrily, Chacha, all these are still alive so I’m pretty sure God won’t execute someone from leaving something they think is harmful.

  • Anon says:

    >>I will have nothing If I ever left PKG

    Don’t leave because we tell you to. Leave if it is harming you, if you are worried about how this will end, and so on.

    >>trying to hold onto it because I will have nothing/no one left if I left

    Some of those that left after May 27 didn’t happen were dumped like they were nothing. The thing is, all of our countries are pretty corrupt and shit will hit the fan sooner or later. But that does not automatically make Ron a prophet. What he says is from God ACTUALLY HAPPENING is what makes a prophet true. So if more of the group leaves sooner or later, you will lose everyone in the end anyway. You will make good friends, maybe end up with family in the church, and won’t be allowed to speak to them if you or they leave later, those left will turn their backs on you while professing how much they love God. It happened to me. It sounds like you already see the warnings or you would not have posted here, and you are only trying to stay in the church because of people you know. It is the same for me but I am anonymous on this site because some of them are reading this and I don’t want to hurt others or endanger anyone’s spirituality, I never did. These are things peiople have to decide for themselves.

    The scariest and one of the saddest things I read was the story of the 16 year old in 1970’s who was convinced he had only a few years to live because of the 1975 apocalypse. Languished while his peers finished school and got careers. It was constant fear of the end of the world for years and years, suddenly he found himself in his 40s and had wasted most of his life, and of course we are all still here. When Ron’s “events and their TIMING will prove me” didn’t prove him I saw the same setup for wasting a whole life waiting on edge for an armageddon that may or may not show up in our lifetime, while sending them (lots of!) money for the rest of your life, and all friendships and family relationships in the church seeming deep and infallible but really they are very conditional on believing that Ron is Moses and Elijah and that everyone is about to die and if you “examine these things to see if they are so” you get kicked out and lose everyone anyway.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    AnonPKG says:
    November 11, 2012 at 16:28

    AnonPKG, This is the “self-proclaimed” second witness , Zerubbabel character ……….. this is what we’re trying to save you from …… This guy drank too much of Weinland’s flavor-ade, and he’s turned into a nutter, complete with fancy-dress costume http://youtu.be/ymVgsDl2lWY Follow the link, and the rest is pretty self-explanatory ! ( You should run fron ‘ol Bubble-head Weinland, and people like this )

  • Anon says:

    you will have lasting love and relationships if you apply God’s way of life toward others by caring for your neighbors and family regardless of whether they are COG-PKG or Egyptian zombies (how you start to view everyone else), honor your mother and father, cherish your wife, be a solid role model for your children, do what you are responsible to do, you won’t convince me that these are bad things in God’s eyes.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    From AnonPKG : ” but how can I keep an open mind when I am not supposed to ? As the devil is waiting to leap into an “open mind” as our pastor says??”

    Please do not listen to anyone who makes a statement like that ! they are nothing but Sociallist Schizophrenics,
    control-freaks, who deny you your self respect , and your right to exercise your God-given free will ! They follow Satan, not Christ !

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    ANON-PKG: You said “I will have nothing If I ever left PKG…”. This fear is EXACTLY what cults do to people, make them believe they are/will be nothing without the cult itself. But consider this. What part of the church specifically is “everything”?

    1. the fellowship? You can find happy, faithful people everywhere. This you will not lack by leaving the PKG.

    2. Salvation? Jesus offered it to ALL who believe him. The Bible makes that clear and unambiguous.

    3. The truth? jesus said I am the Way…you don;t have to believe ANYONE but jesus Christ, and HE says you are OK without Ronald Weinland.

    4. The feeling that youa re special, part of something special – one of God’s Chosen? You ARE…if you follow Christ. You follow Christ by believing him. You do.

    You already have everything God requires of you and everything you need to b a part of the Kingdom…without ever having to believe Ronald Weinland specifically.

    It actually works the OTHER way…

    5. If you follow Ronald Weinland, you stand to LOSE salvation…as Ronald Weinland is a false prophet and those who would follow such a person are NOT going to be a part of God’s Kingdom…according to the Bible.

    6. the Bible repeated states that LIARS and THIEVES will not be saved if they do not repent. Ronald Weinland has LIED and STOLEN, and he has not repented. Liars and their followers both suffer the same fate if those lies are NOT rejected.

    7. If the PKG is ALL you have, and all that makes you life worth living, then part of the problem is overemphasis on a single facotr in your life to bring 100% of your life’s meaning. That definitely can be scary to lose…but by expanding your life you lose nothing. you GAIN friends, you gain faith, you build confidence, and you learn about loving God rather than fearing God wrath if you don;t do what Ronald Weinland says.

    8. NOTHING that Ronald Weinland says is true, about the Bible and about the future. The future is very bright for Christians if they believe the Bible. The future is only scary and dark for FALSE PROPHETS like Ronald Weinland.

    But please don;t just believe what I say. You are obviously scared and are having serious doubts that make you feel weak. That is OK. It is OK to be scared and feel weak…as this is the necessary first step in saving yourself. NOONE here is trying to get you to do something or reject God.

    As you feel more comfortable with your fear, you will begin to learn about it and deal with it one small step at a time. For the time being, why not try reading up on Herbert W. Armstrong, The WorldWide Church of God, read Ron’s book 2008-GFW, reread Ron’s truths and such on his website, and just think about it. The Bible tells us to test all things and hold fast to what is good. Jesus is good…Ronald Weinland, as you will discover, is not what you have been told he is…

    Also ask yourself this question: why would an atheist (me) encourage you to seek God/Jesus Christ? If I and the others here are mockers or evil, why do we encourage you to seek knowledge of Christ and learn about him? Is it possible that God is reaching out to you in love and peace to try and save you and he’ll even use an old pagan like myself to get to you?

    What if God DOESN’T hate you, but rather is happy to see you trying to find him and run away from lies? What if God wants to finally give you peace in your soul? Could that also be possible? What if you ask God to give you the courage you seek…AND HE GIVES IT TO YOU?

  • Anon says:

    Avalo – I thought of you when I saw this posted on another site:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Mujica
    “His humble lifestyle is reflected by his choice of an aging Volkswagen Beetle as transport, his only asset. His wife owns the farm they live on. The Economist describes him as “a roly-poly former guerrilla who grows flowers on a small farm and swears by vegetarianism”. He also donates 87% of his state salary to charitable causes. He does not believe in God.”

    Now here is a humble and genuine man who is more qualified to serve in the kingdom of God than any snake in a suit and tie that I have ever met.

  • Avalokiteshvara says:

    Thanks. Too bad I am neither humble nor charitable! Actually I am charitable. I give 99% of my income away…to my wife! 🙂

  • Velvet says:

    “…honor your mother and father, cherish your wife, be a solid role model for your children, do what you are responsible to do, you won’t convince me that these are bad things in God’s eyes.”

    A bit late to add my comment of support AnonPKG, but I hope it’s not too late. I agree with Anon, and that’s how I live my life (or try to) even though I’m attending with the actual Church (still known as Worldwide Church of God overseas).

    It’s not an easy path: I have been as good as accused (by the Evangelicals) of not being a Christian, for choosing to follow the way of life outlined above, the blessings I have received from same, far outweigh any judgemental attitudes I may get from BOTH sides (i.e., the hardliners think I’m too liberal because I follow what the Bible says and what the Church actually taught, not what their pet apostle “Moses” tells them to; on the flip side of that coin, the Evangelicals claim I don’t have access to God’s grace, simply BECAUSE I choose to follow the lifestyle noted above. (I don’t believe them for one second, by the way.)

    Still, the only advice I can give you is this: God is NOT the author of confusion. If you’re confused by anything, ANYTHING, it is not of God, only of men, and can be safely (and easily) discarded. This is true for 100% of the errors ALL of the splinter groups have fallen into. (Weinland’s splinter group is no different, the only exception is, he actually broke the laws of the land and failed to render unto Caesar.) The Church’s doctrine has always been clear, simple, and easy to understand; if there is ever any point that it is not, that is the fault of the human teachers, not of the doctrine itself.

    Keep strong in your faith, and keep close to God. Continue your prayer, Bible study, and fasting, preferably with the original materials from the Church, still available at http://www.herbertarmstrong.org/ This website is a wealth of information for what the Church ACTUALLY taught, not what everyone says the Church taught. (100% of which are bald-faced lies to begin with.)

    Best of luck to both Anons, you and your families will be in my prayers.