From the Frying Pan into the Fire

False Prophet Ronald Weinland’s senior elder from New Zealand, Adrian Gray along with his wife Cindy (also one of Weinland’s elders) have grown impatient with Ron’s ever moving goal post and have left PKG. This morning I found an email on another blog written by Adrian, but just now able to finish a post after a long day at work.  In Adrian’s email he made the following statements which I have excerpted:

For many years I have been a senior elder in The Church of God – Preparing for the Kingdom of God (PKG). Both my wife and I have been deeply troubled over the last number of years with the teachings of Mr. Weinland.

Despite being deeply troubled by Ron’s teachings, Adrian was around to attend the sermon and give the closing prayer on April 7 when Ron visited New Zealand for the last time before being convicted.

As is often the case, our concerns started with a question about one doctrine, but this one problem quickly grew into many, and then became a virtual avalanche of questions. We sought answers, but there were none to be found. One evangelist even remarked to a member that it was not his job to explain Scripture!

Adrian could have read the last on my blog, or perhaps Christian’s email was circulated directly to him.  Adrian went on to address a number of Weinland’s “truths” that he disagreed with now.   Some he mentioned are:

Second tithe is commanded by God to be used at the Feast of Tabernacles (Deut. 14:23-27), with certain other uses permitted on other Holy Days. Mr. Weinland informed all the brethren that a Google advertising campaign was needed and that all second tithe was to be sent to him for the financing of this campaign. Again, another violation of God’s commands!

The PKG websites say that a remnant of the Worldwide Church of God is to be awakened and will join PKG. This will supposedly consist of 3.3% (10 percent of a third) of those who were members of the WCG before the apostasy began: a total of 3200 people (32,000 x. 0033). If that seems confusing to you, that’s because it is utter nonsense and unbiblical!

This number has now been changed to 63,000 people.

Why have so many of his prophecies failed? Are all these new truths really truths at all?

They have failed because he is a false prophet and none of what he says is truth at all. He does not speak for the God of the Bible. God’s instruction regarding false prophets makes this point perfectly clear. Are we willing to listen to Him?

Recall the book 2008: God’s Final Witness. Has anything come to pass as he said it would?

Mr. Weinland keeps saying it will come to pass exactly as he has written it. It hasn’t—and never will! Time has come and gone—and nothing has happened as he said—nothing!

He will twist the recent events about his conviction of tax fraud just as he has twisted Scripture for his failed prophecies. But his actions are not those of a man of God. Never in the history of God’s Church has a man lied and stolen like Mr. Weinland has. He has been found guilty and he will be punished—and rightly so. Unless he repents, the punishment that God will deliver will be far worse.

Adrian definitely has been reading my blog.  He included in the email he sent out..

… an extract of comments from two of the Jurors. Their account of the court case leaves no doubt as to the corrupt nature of Mr. Weinland and the evil mind that leads the PKG. The juror’s letters reveal what he has been doing with God’s tithes for years. Their reports leave you wondering how he could only face five years in prison.

Though Mr. Weinland views New Zealand as a bastion of loyalty and stability (he has said this) I know for a fact this is far from the truth here. Many are discontented.

Having had Ron Weinland do all our spiritual thinking for us for many years, it is time to prove all things for ourselves. We cannot simply blame Ron Weinland for our being led astray. We are responsible for our own actions and decisions.

While that makes sense, Adrian shows that Flavor Aid can be quite addicting:

At the start of this letter, I said that after much searching and prayer, my wife and I have found where Christ is working—a group that is holding fast to ALL of what God restored to His Church through Mr. Armstrong—a group that has the full Truth of God, the Government of God and is doing the Work of God.

That church is The Restored Church of God.

Ron’s Flavor Aid went sour so he decided to try that of Clarion Call Dave.  Interestingly, Ron’s 2005 origin of Christ doctrine wasn’t mentioned in the doctrines that Adrian disagreed with.  Dave will have to give Adrian’s eyes an extra special washing.

David Pack teaches that the Two Witnesses will come from his church.  But  Dave won’t be one of them, as an apostle he’ll just supervise them.  So who knows?  Maybe Adrian and Cindy will be the Two Witnesses.  In any case, Dave Pack will have his hand out for whatever assets the Grays didn’t give to Ron  (“Get those assets and get them here”, from Pack’s 2007 Clarion Call sermon).

I expect along with Adrian that Ron will have something to say about it:

Finally, I expect to be accused of every kind of misconduct imaginable: financial malfeasance, unethical behavior, sowing division, betrayal and more. Ron will almost certainly declare, “Satan has struck PKG!” Realize he has to say this. But the truth is that the devil struck all of us long ago, but now GOD has shown us His way out! We must TAKE it!

You can read the complete mixture of sanity and silliness in Adrian’s complete email posted on Dave Pack’s blog.  http://www.rcgtruth.com/2012/08/senior-elder-new-zealand-church-pastor_6.html

127 Comments

  • martin says:

    “Having had Ron Weinland do all our spiritual thinking for us for many years, it is time to prove all things for ourselves. We cannot simply blame Ron Weinland for our being led astray. We are responsible for our own actions and decisions.”

    Finally, somebody with some basic common sense, which most PKGer’s seem to have abandoned.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Good thought which Adrian expressed. The reality is that he’s going to be letting Clarion Call Dave do his thinking for him now.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    ” Adrian definitely has been reading my blog. He included in the email he sent out.. ”

    Thats exactly what I was thinking Mike ( DDTFA ), so good for you, that all your research and time seems to be getting through, and now, from the top down…….. this will surely get the PKG’ers tongues a-rattle’n 🙂 and moRon cannot ignore such a high profile rebuking, and subsequent resignation from within ! Excellent work, but seriously ? Herbie and Dave Pack ? Ewwwwww !

  • Jocko says:

    Wow. Old Adrian flew the coop.This is BIG. Looks like Ron’s house of cards is about to come tumbling down.

    Say Ron, A big hello from all of us here at Mike’s Blog. And please give our regards to Judge Reeves when you see him on September 24th. We’re all BIG, BIG fans of his.

    Isn’t it amazing how all of Mike’s prophecies-I mean predictions ALWAYS come true? Out of the frying pan and into the fire indeed.

    Oh and Ron. You now have the answer to that nagging question you’re always asking your flock. As for where are you going to go the answer is apparently House Of Pack-As in David Pack.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Hi Wayne!!!!! You won’t be next will you. No, you are too proud to admit your error. Believing that which you want to believe despite evidence to the contrary. (Sound familiar?)

  • Jocko says:

    So Adrian and Cindy flew out of the cuckoo’s nest. Weren’t there 3 senior elders missing from Ron’s most recent meeting? Could it be that those 3 have also taken flight?

  • Camaris says:

    I don’t see there’s anything to celebrate, unless you’re simply so anti-Weinland that any personal loss to him is to be considered a ‘gain’. Ok ok… so there’s something to celebrate.

    But this is still a personal tragedy for Adrian Gray,whoever he is, and his lucid note turns into a mental meltdown of “having investigated, we now know precisely where Christ is working! That’s right folks, with a small bunch of hillbillies in the Auckland area!” pffft. What is wrong with people? I say that with more respect than I actually feel as I know some of you lot are ex members of these domineering “Christ is working directly with us so go fuck yourselves” churches. For me, this is the loony tunes equivalent of the scene in Monty Python Holy Grail where people all charge about shouting “FOLLOW THE SHOE!” or “FOLLOW THE GOURD!”.

    Just… think… for…. yourselves. Do unto others. Add to the sum total of human happiness. Take your chances at the finish line.

  • Jocko says:

    Kirily, It seems as if Wayne has been keeping a low profile so I too have wondered about him. Just from what you’ve spoken of Wayne I know he’s a good man deep down inside. To be honest with you I’ve always been pulling for Wayne to be the first minister to denounce Ron and label him a false prophet but it looks like he missed the boat. I guess that pride is just too dam much for him to admit the truth.

    And on another note I wonder what ever became of our old pal Ryan. What do you think he’s up too these days. Could it be he still hasn’t forgiven Mike for the infamous mole episode. Is he in or is he out. Inquiring minds would like to know.

  • J says:

    The guy had me going there for a while. It seemed like he was about to break free, and then YOINK! He’s merely swapping drug dealers.

    Dave Pack is pretty much Ronald Weinland, only he has not set a specific date yet – just a nebulous “soon”. Yet another case of “this church has better truth, so I will go to that one instead”, of which I have seen firsthand too. Just last month.

    Congrats Adrian, you got off crystal meth and got onto crack cocaine instead. Once you have that dependency for a man to direct your life, it’s hard to break free. Pack is the ‘next best alternative’.

    Never mind the fact that Pack told his members to sell their homes, sell everything of value and send that money to him NOW (that was 2007). Nope, don’t leave estates to RCG when the members die, but NOW. If the member has a wife, should he leave it to her? Nope, just leave her enough to live on, and give the rest to Pack. She’s a woman, and doesn’t have a say in the matter (Pack’s words). Worried about leaving money for the rest of their family? Pack doesn’t care, they don’t matter. Certainly wouldn’t need it like Pack needed it. Pack mentioned taking equity out of his house to help fund the church (sound familiar?) I wonder if he showed “total resolve”.

    Pack said just a few months ago that any minister that is not in RCG is in the synagogue of satan, and bound for the lake of fire – members too. What a loving man he is…

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Crickey, I had no idea ? why with all this ” our Church has better truth ” stuff, and all that……. Its kinda like change’in breakfast cerials, ’cause the other has a better slogan ? only a breakfast cerial does’nt consume or threaten your whole income…….. well, unless you’re gonna buy the Company, that is. 😀

    Well, if the New Zealand and some Australian folks follow Adrien & Cindy over to Pack, at least that cuts around 15% or so from moRon’s greedy grip ? and gets a further 40% ( or more ) questioning, and re-thinking on a highly awkward position that ( their in ). 😀

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Jeepers Creepers, how do these minister guys, think their ever gonna get anyone into heaven anyway ? Is’nt it up to the individual ?
    Would’nt it be awfully boring if heaven turned out to be like a butter popcorn color haze mist, with a bunch of pale, smiling, nerdie looking, toga wearing zombies, play’in harps ? ( all look’n like Dave Pack ) and say’in annoy’in things to ya all the time like you’re back in year 3 primary ?

    Why do I wanna scream HEEEEELP ! right now ? 😀 Phew, that’s right ! ( calm down ) I just observe all this stuff, and can’t get caught up in it ! 😀

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    The 3 missing senior elders were from among the North American cohort. Probably missing because they couldn’t make the pilgrimage to Union, KY on such short order. Or maybe Ron just didn’t have room in his basement.

    When it comes to Adrian Gray, a few points of clarification. There is a religious figure in Australia with the same name: different person. I read a comment on another blog thinking that the PKG-now-RCG Adrian was paid by Ron and now will be paid by Dave. I don’t think that _any_ of Ron’s elders get a paycheck besides Audra.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    What’s that ? Mike ( DDTFA ), so ya think they’re doing all this, putting themselves ( moRon’s Elders ) on the line, for nothing ? and a nothingness belief ? They must be crazier than he is ? I wonder then, how did Wayne Matthews get to Covington KY for the court case? Surely not on his own dollar ? Thier bigger fools than I thought ! So they are teaching others ? pfft ! Thats just nuts 😀

    Still, I think its funny, Ron won’t even get to see his ” fools Paradise “, much less Heaven HA ! he’s going ta jail instead ! 😀

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Wayne was in Kentucky during the trial. Gave a split sermon with Johnny the weekend following the guilty verdict. Though I don’t think he attended much of it.

  • bags juror #199 says:

    In my opinion this whole Weinland thing has nothing to do with religion other than using religion to screw money out of people so the Weinland Clan can ride the Gravy Train. It seems like some others are pulling their heads out of the sand regarding Ron’s PKG-COG. Good for them! RUN PEOPLE, RUN!!!!!!!

    Yes Mike (DDTFA), These people were in Kentucky for the trial etc; I read and would like to clarify something. As for Johnny (elders) that I am aware of they all stated that they were not paid and that they paid for their own travel as well. It was apparent that the only elder paid was Audra….HUH?? Do the math. This is what just kills me. The simple fact that Ron’s followers fail to recognize that Ron does not care a single bit about them. His ONLY CONCERN is to score MONEY so he can live a wonderful life at others expense.

    I would have more respect for Ron if he had the back bone to be a real thief / robber / criminal. That would be zero as well. Instead he disguises himself within religion. I can not state enough about what a low-life scumbag this creep is. What a piece of garbage!! Just one jurors opinion, but it is apparent the other 11 jurors agree.

  • Debbie says:

    According to Adrian Gray’s letter, he & wife have had doubts since April 2008 when the nuclear bombs didn’t go off. Wow, that takes me back to March 22/2008 to Ronnie’s sermon where he said in a mocking and condescending manner …’some are saying nothing happened…did I say anything would happen?…it’s spiritual…’
    (That was the final deciding moment for me to know Ronnie was full of more than hot air.)

    Adrian continues to highlight other areas of doubt throughout this past 4 years – to me, that is a long time to be in doubt, yet continuing to ‘go along’ despite continually ignoring ‘Ronnie’s false prophecies and false teachings’ – he then writes about the 2nd tithes requested for the RW’s google campaign …. then later writes re: his discovery of Ronnie’s 5 felony convictions… I am thinking this information was the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ … Too bad that Adrian’s research did not include the information re: Dave Pack 2007 Clarion Call (similar to Ronnie’s Total Resolve)

    Adrian also writes how Ronnie is not a godly man – perhaps Adrian could consider doing some research into Herbert Armstrong and the immoral acts of arrogance, incest and greed which he practiced … his recall must be short, that he does not remember that Herbie had many false prophecies as well. I haven’t read much about David Pack, but the following principle comes to my mind – A rotting tree bears rotting fruit (or something like that).

    I can’t help but think about Adrian’s wife Cindy – coming from WCG, where many men (& women) practiced an attitude toward women as something similar to that of what is stuck to the bottom of one’s shoe …. Is she just going along? Adrian’s letter made a point of mentioning how Ronnie had been wrong in ordaining women ….Has he had this attitude and belief for all this past time and how is this impacting Cindy?

    Adrian writes how in his ‘research’ he went back to the original teachings of Herbert Armstrong ….. reminds me how deeply ingrained these teachings and beliefs are with people … his research results are just the confirmation of his pre-existing bias. No matter what he ‘researches’ he will only be open to information that supports the original teachings to which he is strongly holding onto.

    The good news in all of this is that Ronnie’s PKG is unravelling so that after Ronnie goes to prison, there will be less $$$ going to support the lifestyle to which Laura and Audra have become accustomed. I am hoping the IRS or some other branch of Federal Govt will investigate them as well, as the facts given at Ronnie’s trial and since have unfolded to reveal that Laura, Audra and Ron are co-conspirators.

  • Whisper says:

    Some may be able to up and leave the Armstrong cults entirely, but many will more than likely jump to nearest “safe” place (ala Dave Pack).
    But like the death penalty for a infamous criminal, it’s not about teaching a lesson to others so they don’t break that law, it’s about getting rid of that one criminal.
    wRONg is being removed, slowly from the “inside out”? Dave’s and other WCG con’s will benefit from wRONg’s fall but it’s not about removing WCG, it’s about removing wRONg!

    Maybe New Zealand will drop to a membership of “zero”? Maybe it will impact Australia. Maybe it will impact the USA. Maybe it will impact Europe?
    And this is even prior to the point that a judge looks down upon wRONg and lays down a ruling that may place wRONg behind steel bars?
    I wonder what kind of impact that will have upon the sheep, no longer being able to hear wRONg’s non-recorded messages?
    Without wRONg and wife winging it all over the globe to meet and greet the sheep will those sheep become restless?
    wRONg was not stupid in getting out to the sheep, it helps keep them in bonds.
    One more bond slipping away…
    How many bonds does it take to fall off to make a sheep wander off?
    Go figure?

  • The PKG members are livestock, but have we really established what kind? Are we sure they are sheep?

    They seem more like cattle in the Armstrongist cattle drive.

    (And no, I did NOT call Laura an old cow!)

  • gullible says:

    ron is working the PKGers hard to instill fear again. Do not dare to murmur and question ron’s authority!! ron’s god speaks DIRECTLY and CLEARLY to ron (just like Moses) and to no one else (neither the evangelist nor the elders).

    There are no lack of false ministers and prophets in the world, and ron’s god is only too happy to add to the confusion. ron’s god caused his final prophet to fail by design in all his prophecies, so that there can be NO distinction among all the other false prophets out there. In other words, ron’s god speaks to ron crystal clear, but intentionally gives all the wrong information, so ron is guaranteed to fail for testing purposes. When anyone is tested by ron’s god, it’s always a win-win, as no one would dare to question any type of test from any god – rather we tend to appreciate being “tested” as that mean that god cares enough to “test” us (special people). This intentional betrayal by ron’s god so that ron can be the subject of mockery only enhances the notion that ron’s god is not in the business saving anyone in the present world – so if anything, ron’s god can make it absolutely impossible for anyone to find his true prophet, for all ron’s god cares. So, one needs to fluke it to find the true prophet. Good luck!

    Just a typical Weinland logic, which makes absolute sense only to Weinland clan. And yes, they know they are crazy, but they also know they are right.

  • Atrocious says:

    No, but I bet you thought it, Douglas. LOL

    Well, y’know, when one goes to prison, that’s one down, and how many more to go? Which one will be the next “Ron Weinland”? There are quite a few to choose from.

    It’s kind of … well … entertaining (in a macabre sort of way) to watch RW go through the very curses he “inflicted” on his mockers. He’s dying from the inside out, speedily slow, and his family will have to find another source of income (I’m hoping) in short order, one that is legitimate, not criminal.

    I’ve heard that professional pan-handlers can make 60 grand a year. Maybe Laura and Co. can start making the sandwich boards to hang from their shoulders and stand out on the street corner with their cups (or hats) in hand.

  • gullible says:

    It is so obvious to see (if you have eyes to see), that ron is continuously trying to shift focus from his failures and using 26th May as an opportunity that PKGers should take in reflecting on it’s importance (effectively changing the focus from ron to the individual PKGer). What a snake!! Also, ron reading a letter from someone who is deep in his flavor aid, seems like deja vu all over again. Whenever ron’s own words are just not convincing enough to push it across the line (for PKGers to swallow it), he would often use a letter from someone who agrees with him to give him some credibility. For all I know, ron could have written it himself or made adjustments to it as these letters have a similar style to it, where the author would question something and after a while seems to “get it” and accept ron’s “truth”. Besides, given that PKGers are ALWAYS told to look at the website for answers, why would anyone waste their time to send ron any letters/emails.

  • FedUp says:

    Debbie makes an interesting point. What will Elder Cindy’s status be in Pack’s group? A woman is a position of leadership is heresy in the COGs. Will she be “de-eldered”? Will she have to repent? Will Adrian have to repent for losing control of his wife? I see sackcloth and ashes in someone’s future.

    And really, Adrian! Going from Weinland to Pack? Come on! Reminds me of my army days when during physical training the entire company would have to chant, “We like it, we love it, we want more of it!” Why do you hate yourself so much? Why do you hate your wife so much? Why do you think God hates you and wants you under the dictatorial control of one madman or conman after another? This is not the gospel! Get a grip, man! Ultimate truth is not housed with any one organization, and it sure as hell is not with Pack. How many more groups will you jump to in search of “truth”?

    Honestly, to anyone out there who has hopscotched around the COGs (like I did), take some time to detox. Stop all tape programs, newletters, emails, magazines, etc., coming from these groups. Do not attend services. Spend a few quiet Sabbaths away from the control freaks. Clear your head. I know many here no longer believe in God. I do. I’m not saying to give up God, but you won’t get any closer to Him if you let a man or an organization control your mind and crush your soul. A healthy relationship with God should bring you joy, not terror. When you spend your life waiting for the other shoe to drop, it really warps your perspective. Please get out of those groups. The kind of “fellowship” they offer is not worth the price.

  • gullible says:

    If Adrian received information from Mike (DDTFA) blog here, would be good if he mentioned how this blog helped him. I wonder if any ex-elder ever came on this blog? Or maybe, they don’t feel welcomed enough, shy or feel that they shouldn’t go near such blogs as ron told them not too and you just can’t underestimate the affect ron has on someone even when that person leaves.

  • Say what you will, but this would all make a heck of a source of material if I were to get my Master’s in psychology.

    As it is, I just can’t put down my DSM IV when I read stuff here.

  • Camaris says:

    Good posts from Gullible and FedUp on this thread, both of which make excellent points that you’d need to have a brain injury not to read and recognise as helpful. PKG readers? Please scroll back up, read their comments again slowly a few times and consider them ( in a powerful way etc etc).

    When you are done, in order to lighten the mood, head out and pick up a copy of Monty Python Life of Brian. Watch it for a bit and see if you recognise yourselves in the scenes where the crowd run around like mental patients, all vying over the best way in which to “follow” the (non) Messiah. At one point he yells at them, as they follow him : “Just @#$% off!”. They pause, shocked…. Then yell back “and HOW should we #$%^ off?!”. You might relate to it a bit, no?

  • Beeln There Done That says:

    I fear that people departing from the PKG probably have a problem with the fowl language some of you use here on this forum. I gained a lot of insight here, but would really like to see people actually find help here and not be offended.——I found that going from one Armstrong group to another will only prolong your agony. When I departed from Herbert Armstrongs organization way back when, I jumped to Garner Ted’s organization. When he was accused of sexual misconduct, I decided to give Ron Dart a try. When that didn’t work, and I could see “gray” areas, I tried the United Church of God. I finally learned that trying to make a certain way of thinking right, doesn’t automatical make it right. When I removed the fear from my world, I begn to see a creator who really loves and cares for me, instead of a vengful, mean being.—-My mom is a member of Ron’s church and I once I told her that I really felt loved by God for the first time in my life. She looked at me and said, (sarcastically) “‘You really think you’re special, don’t you?” The answer I now have is, “Yes, I do, because I’ve been saved by Jesus Christ and that is all I need”.

  • Camaris says:

    Hi Beein there, if you’re referring to my quote and the F-word then I’m sorry you were offended. That said, I personally think it is a shame if grown-ups can’t tolerate the odd cuss word if proportionate to the point of a posting and without undue malice. Why? Because in the REAL world people cuss a bit. A think a little more ‘real world’ and a little less kooky religion is probably a useful medicine for some of the good folk who visit here but have spent many years in a bubble, being told the end is near and everyone about them is fundamentally sinful either through ignorance or, worse, choice. I expect most people here who occasionally type a rude word are decent enough, tax paying people who are nice to strangers and are generally positive. It seems to me the same can’t always be said for those being all righteous in some of these ‘churches’!

  • J says:

    I think the title of this thread is a bit of a misnomer. RCG is basically PKG a decade ago. Pack just hasn’t made the outlandish claims yet. Perhaps “From the Fire back into the Frying Pan”?

  • chacha says:

    Wow. I was shocked…then MORE shocked when he said he found the “truth” with DAVE PACK! Are you nuts?

    Ah well..some just can’t go cold-turkey I guess…

    Good luck Adrian and Cindy. You’ll need it with ol’ Dave.

    And while Johnny may have said the elders pay for their own travel…maybe if they CHOOSE to travel to a site…like Ralph Dowd does. BUT when there is an elders meeting, we were to send our itemized expenses to Audra and were reimbursed for travel. PKG paid for hotel and food too.

  • Rambo says:

    Mike, you should put a count-down timer for the sentencing of convicted fellon, Ronald Weinland.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    While not personally offended by Camaris use of the f-bomb, I would like to keep the dialog here family friendly. So a mild edit to his comment.

  • Mark says:

    “but now GOD has shown us His way out! We must TAKE it!”

    Amen to that!

  • Mark says:

    Oh wait, he went from False Prophet Ronald to False Prophet Dave Pack? I rescind my previous comment. They haven’t learned their lesson yet. Takes a few more beatings before they will finally get it.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    I don’t care where Adrien & Cindy go and join up with, the PKG’ers oughta go their own way now, ya don’t need group dynamics or a club mentallity to worship God anyway ? I could never understand this compultion by those who say they ” found Christ “, they only start cutt’in their hair the same way, wear the same clothes, drive the same cars, work similar jobs, and in all this they get the same type of scream’in nut Pastor ? and yes, after a while , thats right ! they’ve suddenly got all the same PROBLEMS……. and none are happy, they end up grouchy and paranoid !

    I spent my life liv’in in dormes with the ” group ” , in school with the ” group “, school holidays on a farm with the ” group “……and so on, I felt so absolutely free, when I left school, got my place, and finally had the chance to become somewhat anonymous…….. I really felt like I could finally breathe, and decide everything for myself ……. Ahhhhhh, Bliss ! 😀

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Its now the fourth day ( in Australia ), since Adrian’s letter was posted….. or ( three and one half days ) at least, and not a word of acknowledgement, on moRon’s site, not a word of encouragement to the flock ( to say strong ) in the faith of ” God’s Government “, not the slightest word of consolation to the remaining flock, nothing……. at such a critical time in PKG’s history ? What price faith ? Where is it moRon ? ……… you’re silence could cut so much into your income ! …… THIS IS SERIOUS for you bud ! and ya don’t give a damn ! Just What sort of ” God’s Government ” are you running ? Don’t you care that around 15% of your world wide nett flock have have had a gut-full of your ” desert tour ” and are returning to Egypt ? What happened to your ” God’s Diplomat ” guy ? ( if your all choked-up ) ? 😀

  • Ohioan says:

    The errors, deceptions, and heresies of Weinland and his followers (ever fewer, perhaps) are those of all of the Armstrongists.

    As a person polluted and warped by the Biblically erroneous teachings of the Armstrongs, I pray for those still deluded by the Armstrong wanna-be’s, the Packs, the Merediths, the Weinlands, and all the pompous and self-righteous others. All of them continue to bow to the arrogance and errors of Herbert W. Armstrong, hoping somehow to continue that man’s sins in self-defined and self-righteous, but clearly contrived, “rectitude.”

    Not a one of these deceivers did or do follow the clearest teachings of the Holy Bible; on the contrary, their teachings and practices condemn both themselves and those who buy into their purported, unique, and otherwise unknown “righteousness.” For over 13 years, while I and Armstrong’s teachings destroyed my marriage, severely reduced my professional development, and incurred a still-prevailing sense of fears and tears, I, too, believed and practiced (sort of) what the Armstrongs preached. Fortunately, I came to my senses when the church began to disintegrate in the 90s. I’m still trying to recover —- but never will completely. I’m not unique, either. How the Armstrongists will answer the questions of how they so powerfully destroyed human lives and kept hundreds of thousands from believing authentic Christianity when standing before Christ’s Judgement Seat is unknown.

    But it can be imagined. Knowing the genetic and generational arrogance of both Herbert W. and Garner Ted Armstrong, they will tell Christ he’s wrong; that they have the Real Truth.

    Had I known in the early 80s about what is now clearly available concerning the true character of the Armstrongs, I don’t think I would have been deluded. But tens of thousands continue, even with clear and accurate information regarding the following Armstrong sins and character traits.

    1. Herbert W. Armstrong, while occupying the pulpit and proclaiming himself a minister of Christ, repeated and continually raped his daughter. Not once, but frequently for a number of years. Yes, David raped a neighbor woman, once. But he acknowledged it, and repented, in tears and ashes. David was God’s man, and was forgiven because he repented. Herbert W. Armstrong was his own man, answering to no one, neither God himself, nor to any human. His daughter was his sexual plaything, repeatedly.

    And the HWA wanna-be’s regard Armstrong as the age’s spokesman for Godly truth. That’s not the God I read about in my Bible.

    2. Both Armstrongs made numerous, ominous predictions of end-time terrors coming upon those who aren’t members of their churches, or practice their selected portions of Mosaic Law. Not a one of those prophecies came true. False prophets, by any definition, including that of Deuteronomy.

    3. Armstrong cleverly selected and re-morphed merely a few portions of The Law, requiring observance of his clever but incomplete listings of The Law. Clearly, observe the entire law, or it condemns. But in delusion, the contemporary Armstrong Sabbatarians of each stripe delude themselves in the self-righteous belief that Armstrong was special, that God selected him (and his underling cohorts) to “properly” interpret (actually, to contrive) a 20th-century Law. But it’s in error on every count.

    4. All of the Armstrong church leaders enrich themselves from tithes, clearly validating their own teachings that those who tithe will be rewarded both materially and spiritually. Herbert Armstrong’s non-use of third-tithe funds to assist the poor and needy in his church was, for me, revelatory. Instead, he used the unsegregated funds to operate a private jet, in which he could proclaim (many times) that he was sitting at many thousands of feet above the earth, watching it pass beneath him on some useless overseas jaunt. But my kids and wife, who were non-members, suffered.

    How anyone can continue in an Armstrongist organization is now beyond me. I’ve touched on but a few of the theological errors and heresies started by and continued by Armstrong and his mystical offspring. Weinland was (and is) but one of the many committing the severest of heretical crimes against formerly innocent people searching for biblical truths.

    So, Weinland’s diminishing remnants continue in the face of his recent debacles. Same with the other Armstrongists, worldwide. Satan has them. They fail to honestly deal with their churches’ present heresies; and they are even more stiff-necked in failing to confront the heresies and errors of the founding Armstrongs and their cohorts.

    They, too, will be just like Herbert Armstrong before Christ’s Judgement Seat, arrogantly claiming that they have The Truth, that it came from the modern apostle (enter any of the several names, Mr. ….).

    I pray for all of these people. Presently, from the clearest Biblical teachings, they haven’t a chance and will be tossed alive into the Lake of Fire.

    Self-delusion, based upon the arrogant, contrived, and self-righteous teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, is for some a powerful Satanic force.

    Here, understandably, the postings stick to the heresies and errors of Ronald Weinland. But no one should forget that they derive from the founding Great Heretic, Herbert W. Armstrong, himself.

    – Ohioan, A Former WCG Sabbatarian, now a true Christian.

  • Mantayo says:

    Budgie Smugglers says:
    August 8, 2012 at 03:58

    “Would’nt it be awfully boring if heaven turned out to be like a butter popcorn color haze mist, with a bunch of pale, smiling, nerdie looking, toga wearing zombies, play’in harps ? ( all look’n like Dave Pack ) and say’in annoy’in things to ya all the time like you’re back in year 3 primary ?”

    Funny you should ask. Peter Cook and Dudley Moore asked the same question in “Bedazzled” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z8AddFYCnA&feature=endscreen

  • Mantayo says:

    To Adrian Gray,

    In your letter posted on the blog
    http://www.rcgtruth.com/2012/08/senior-elder-new-zealand-church-pastor_6.html?gclid=CLe6s7v51rECFQiCpAodO2cAJg
    you wrote:

    “I have included with this letter (as either attachments or links) a number of additional documents and CDs/audio files. I ask that you carefully read and listen to each one. You will not regret it.

    The first is an extract of comments from two of the Jurors. Their account of the court case leaves no doubt as to the corrupt nature of Mr. Weinland and the evil mind that leads the PKG. The juror’s letters reveal what he has been doing with God’s tithes for years. Their reports leave you wondering how he could only face five years in prison.

    A separate extensive article linked below goes into great depth of how Ron Weinland is not, and could never be, one of the Two Witnesses—let alone hold any of the offices he claims. This article is eye-opening and categorically proves from the Bible just how utterly inept this man is with regard to Bible prophecy. It serves as a dire warning about false prophets:”

    I have followed all the links you provided in that letter and none leads to a source for the “juror’s letters” or the “extract of comments from two of the jurors” with their revelation of the “corrupt nature of Mr. Weinland and the evil mind that leads the PKG.” So I have to conclude that this “extract of comments” is contained in the attachments you refer to in your post and, as one who didn’t receive your email, I consequently didn’t receive the attachments and thus can’t confirm your source. Maybe you included a source in the attachment, but I doubt it.

    Similarly, when I read the article at the first link you provided http://rcg.org/sep/cogpkg_ronaldweinland.html I found that although David Pack has bookended an old article about Ronald Weinland with an updated “Editor’s Note . . . . With Weinland’s subsequent 5-count criminal conviction and revelation of the most egregious misuse of funds—and a number of years in federal prison now just ahead—” and “Author’s Note – August 2012 . . . and Ron Weinland will still be in federal prison. He will be less than a year into a long sentence for real tax fraud—in fact, MASSIVE tax fraud, for those who know the facts!” he also has omitted a source for readers to check the facts for themselves.

    Why do these apparent (and if I am wrong I want to be corrected) omissions matter?

    The first issue is common, garden-variety plagiarism.

    The second is more sinister, because both you and Pack have apparently chosen to withhold from your readers any link to the source of your knowledge concerning the jurors’ revelations. That is to say you have denied the recipients of your email/webpost the opportunity to read for themselves the jurors’ original posts and their contents (almost certainly on Mike (DDTFA)’s blog – it would have been a more simple matter to provide a link rather than cut and paste and send as an attachment), which you and Pack have obviously read yourselves.

    In short, you appear to be manipulating and misleading your intended targets in no less a scurrilous manner than does he against whom you so self-servingly rail with you new-found concern for the truth. You link to websites when it suits you, but cut and paste into an attachment the words of writers when you decide on behalf of others that they should not have access to the sources you came across in your “searching”.

    I hope I have missed something. Maybe the missing link does indeed exist, but so far I have been unable to find it.

  • jack says:

    Adrian is indeed doomed, for he does not realize that ALL COG ministers are the same as Ronald Weinland. They are for profit con artists that do not believe in God.

    It does not matter which COG a PKG member switches to, the end result is the same. They are deceived into giving money to a professional con artist. This is true of any other Mega church as well. They want your money and they will do a pretty good song and dance for you just to get that money. They do not believe in God.

    For this reason, Adrian is jumping out of Ron’s frying pan and straight into the continuing fire that is called by the COG name. The ex PKGers like Adrian should try walking to a local church near their home. And I mean an actual building that has been there long enough to be paid for. They might find out that someone is actually reading a whole chapter of the Bible word for word. And if they are not, then walk to a different church next time. If the preacher is always asking for money, then he too does not believe in God.

  • martin says:

    Not to defend Ronald Weinland……

    “I have included with this letter (as either attachments or links) a number of additional documents and CDs/audio files. I ask that you carefully read and listen to each one. You will not regret it.

    The RCG site is posting most or all of Adrian’s email, Adrian’s email was sent out to PKG members, RCG is simply re-posting it on a public blog (presumably with Adrian’s permission). RCG is not interested in posting anything from the court proceedings. If you or anybody is interested in that, much of that can be found here.
    (I do not say this matches with Adrian’s documents, I do not know, maybe MikeDDTFA has another link)

    Similarly, when I read the article at the first link you provided http://rcg.org/sep/cogpkg_ronaldweinland.html I found that although David Pack has bookended an old article about Ronald Weinland with an updated “Editor’s Note . . . . With Weinland’s subsequent 5-count criminal conviction and revelation of the most egregious misuse of funds—and a number of years in federal prison now just ahead—” and “Author’s Note – August 2012 . . . and Ron Weinland will still be in federal prison. He will be less than a year into a long sentence for real tax fraud—in fact, MASSIVE tax fraud, for those who know the facts!” he also has omitted a source for readers to check the facts for themselves.

    I doubt RCG is interested in presenting such documentation, only the biblical / doctrinal parts, the legal parts one can simply google (and will probably land here)

    The first issue is common, garden-variety plagiarism.

    Why are you accusing RCG of plagiarism? Mike has quoted enough of Adrian’s discourse here, taken from RCG (which of course he sites). Should Mike be accused of plagiarism? Well of course not.
    RCG credits Adrian for the letter, they do not give out a URL, presumably one does not exist (if there is one, then somebody should post the link)

    The second is more sinister, because both you and Pack have apparently chosen to withhold from your readers any link to the source of your knowledge concerning the jurors’ revelations. That is to say you have denied the recipients of your email/webpost the opportunity to read for themselves the jurors’ original posts and their contents (almost certainly on Mike (DDTFA)’s blog – it would have been a more simple matter to provide a link rather than cut and paste and send as an attachment), which you and Pack have obviously read yourselves.

    RCG is only concerned with presenting the biblical and doctrinal aspects of this situation, not the legal part. Most of that can be googled and found.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Thats all soooo right ! Jack, Mantayo,Ohioan, Fed-up and Debbie etc; you all make such good points ! I think to follow Armstrongism, at any level, would be seeking the wrath of God upon themselves, Ohioan, your revelations from that organisation were truly shocking indeed, and I believe, ( and am largely ‘ the unwashed ‘ ), that God had ruined Armstrongism ’cause of Herbie’s discusting and unspeakable acts of sin , and has and is ruining Ron’s fledgeling blasphemous business, as well……. just look at how ( God ) destroyed Jim Bakkers empire and his blasphemous wife, his Disneyland Holiday brothel for Christians…….. and he too now has a terminal illness …….. for his ” blessing ” and thank the Lord for that !

    I am so insensed by all this, If Ron wanted to end it all, I’d be lining – up to give him the advise, and the means 😀 SHAME on people like that.

  • Jocko says:

    Martin said “The RCG site is posting most or all of Adrian’s e-mail”.

    Martin, The only e-mail from Adrian I could find was the one Mike linked at the top of this page. Do have a link or any advise on how to access Adrian’s other e-mail messages? Thanks, Jocko.

  • martin says:

    No.

    This email was sent by Adrian to PKGer’s, I am going by what has been done with previous ministers who have left a splinter to join RCG. (that is, what RCG’s practice has been in these situations).

    Yes, presumably RCG has the relevant links and materials included in original email, but has decided not to host such material, as far as I know there are no public links to them…..maybe there are, if MikeDDTFLA has them, he may post it, or decide not to. Much of the material was probably sourced from here anyway, I’m sure.

    This is probably one of the reasons RCG has not posted a link, as posting a link to outside sites (religious or otherwise) is not standard practice for them.
    (they do site sources for quotes or news bites of course, like everybody else)

  • Mantayo says:

    martin says:
    August 9, 2012 at 01:10

    Not to defend Ronald Weinland…… Apart from being the subject of the posts by Gray and Pack Ron W has nothing to do with this.

    RCG is not interested in posting anything from the court proceedings. You mean apart from the charges, verdict(s) and (for those who know the facts!) that the case involves MASSIVE tax fraud.

    If you or anybody is interested in that, much of that can be found here. But neither of Gray nor Pack let their readers know where “here” is. That is the main objection I have.

    I doubt RCG is interested in presenting such documentation. I don’t doubt it, I know it. They didn’t back up their quotes and assertions with sources. Their reasons for the omission are not disclosed, but I suspect that they don’t want to make readers aware of this site.

    Why are you accusing RCG of plagiarism? Not RCG. Adrian Gray, who has quoted the two jurors word for word but did not attribute them to a source (to the best of my knowledge).

    Should Mike be accused of plagiarism? Well of course not. You have answered your own question.

    RCG credits Adrian for the letter, they do not give out a URL, presumably one does not exist (if there is one, then somebody should post the link) Exactly so.

    RCG is only concerned with presenting the biblical and doctrinal aspects of this situation, not the legal part. You mean apart from the charges, verdict(s) and (for those who know the facts!) that the case involves MASSIVE tax fraud.

    Adrian Gray saw fit to link to webpages that support his new conviction, including a piece by Pack that carries as pre- and post-scripts references to reporting on Ron Weinland’s trial and sentencing. When it came to the contributions from the jurors he chose to include the text as attached documents. As far as I can tell, all that information came from this site, but neither writer at any time gives this (or any other site) as the source. One doesn’t have to be an academic to find such omissions unacceptable under any circumstances, and under the circumstances that pertain on Mike(DDTFA)’s blog I am exceedingly suspicious of the motives.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    When it comes to Herbert Armstrong, I believe he was more abusive false prophet than Ronald Weinland. Even if he wasn’t guilty of the sexual misconduct with his daughter (I’ve not heard any hint of Ron being accused of sexual improprieties). Ron hasn’t told people not to get medical care, Herbie’s wife died of an untreated ailment that might have been as simple to fix as an enema (don’t know the exact nature of her ailment, whether it was that simple is beside the point). AFAIK, Ron hasn’t told members to get divorced because one of the partners has previously been married. Herbie affected more people, and also had his hand out for money big time. Herbie may have been guilty of the same kind of tax evasion as Ron.

    Whether Ohioan is a “true Christian” is debatable as everyone has their own definition. I saw on another blog a video clip of a woman being told she wasn’t Christian because she didn’t support Chick-Fil-A.

    Looks like RCG wasn’t very careful posting Adrian’s letter. I imagine that Adrian didn’t want to post a link to my blog because I have a few articles critical of his new spiritual idol, Dave Pack. RCG is the same, in the article on their site on Weinland they have stated “….. in fact, MASSIVE tax fraud, for those who know the facts! “. But as pointed out by Montayo don’t want to point to my site that has the facts.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Herbie probably let his wife die ’cause he might have been sick of her ? His and Ron’s behaviour, in convincing and taking advantage of vulnerable , lonely people , for financial gain , and self advancement of their ” brand ” and business, is about as low as one could get…….. and as we have seen and heard from Ron, taking self appointed offices , eg ; Witnesses, Elijah, the one to come , Moses and so on, in the name of God, and speaking for God, without authority, ’cause he’s too lazy to work, is reprehensible, as far as I’m concerned, and goes against all society stands for !

    Now moRon has made himself a laughing stock, an international internet idiot ( of all time ), and a world-wide recognised FOOL of all time ! I mean , Was the money worth it ?
    Why has he done this to himself & family , giving Christianity , a bad name , and scaring people out of believing in something, or destroying and confusing others ? What has he gained ? AND he goes on ! 😀

  • Debbie says:

    I re-read the letter from Adrian Gray – (noticed it was posted on a site which promotes RCG) – this could read as a polished ad for RCG – the letter begins addressing Adrian & wife’s doubts then makes the statement they have found the ‘true church’ – with the hook in, the letter then de-constructs Ronnie’s teachings and addresses ‘the brethern’ that their eternal lifes are all at stake – then provides info about the wonderful RCG. To me the unwritten message to the brethern is ‘leave false Ron Weinland & join up true RCG’.

    This letter and a google ad for RCG are the 2 top links when I googled Ron Weinland this a.m. This whole scenario is like a marketing tool to encourage disgruntled PKGers to leave and join up with WCG. I am not so familiar with RCG/Dave Pack except that I have read they are engaged in constructing an expensive building – so the few $$$ any former PKGers are able to contribute would be welcomed. Perhaps it has already been decided that Adrian will be the ‘shepherd’ to the flock of PKGers becoming RCGers in their locale.

    As Mantayo observed, there is no link for those reading to ‘check the facts for themselves’ – that would mean the reader would be encouraged to think for themself, which is contrary to the WCG/PKG/COG and perhaps RCG modes of information and thought control.

    Ohian wrote the comment re: Herbie’s misuse of 3rd tithe – From my memory, Joe Tkach Sr. was the administrator of those funds -( providing for widows and fatherless – my terminology) – I had wondered in the past if Herbie selected Joe Tkach Sr. as subsequent Pastor General ‘cuz Joe knew first hand of the financial abuses and where the ‘bodies where buried’ so to speak.

  • Charlie says:

    As Mantayo pointed out, These >coughahem< ministers are a danger to the mental, physical, and financial well being of anyone gullible enough to get hooked.

  • Atrocious says:

    IMO, is sounds to me like Adrian was “hired” by RCG to continue his elder-ship by herding the sheep in that direction. I wonder how much money changed hands. I wonder how many promises were made to the Gray family. Yeah, I know I’m stepping out on a limb with my speculations, but it is obvious “somethin’ ain’t right” here.

    Apples don’t fall far from the tree and big snakes make little snakes that grow.

  • It never ceases to amaze me how people are so very loyal to those who not only provide nothing, but are giant devouring resource hog sink holes with an infinite capacity to consume other people’s resources.

    Diamond gold rings for Laura: There’s nothing like conspicuous public consumption of other people’s wealth for personal aggrandizement.

    Cow.

  • jack says:

    Atrocious, I agree with everything you just said. A senior elder leaving pkg but bringing his flock with him to another COG? The evidence of deception is glaring in his email and RCG’s article. Yes everyone, leave that bad Ronald and come over here to the real church with the real truth. The blind and the deaf. They are doomed until one day they have had enough “giving” and realize it was all phoney and just a bunch of con artists that are “taking”. Unfortunately that could take a lifetime for some. There’s nothing I can do about it.

  • Charlie says:

    I wonder how many of the pastors and the lay-people are motivated to join these churches out of a genuine desire to be good people or if the primary motivation is simply to avoid the predicted catastrophies? Perhaps that is major reason for this switch to the RCG. I remember several of herbie’s pitches in the PT and the booklets about there being a “Way Out” and avoiding the great tribulation and so forth. I had no choice in the matter, I was born into it and after struggling with it all through my late teens and early 20’s I finally left for good. I was dumb enough to go back after the Marines but finally left for good. 😉

  • martin says:

    RCG does not link to other blog sites, that is not their practice….

    How many PKGers received Adrian’s email? Just locales? The entire PKG membership? I don’t know. The point is, they received said information in the form of attachments. So it is not like they are not being informed. As for “outsiders” (those outside of PKG), it is not necessary to inform them as they are not “party” to the issue.

    Outsiders can check out RCG for themselves (there are links to the whole splinter issue, which can be found quite easily at RCG).

  • Jocko says:

    Thank you Martin. I thought this was the case but just wanted to make certain I wasn’t missing something

  • FedUp says:

    Charlie, I think fear and wanting to avoid tribulation are primary motivators for people staying with these groups. Also, people are terrified by the notion that they (or their group) might not have all their doctrinal ducks in a row, hence the constant search for those preaching “the truth”. I am particularly nauseated by those groups that latch onto one particular doctrine (like the proper date for Passover) and spend most of their time and resources teaching on that one subject. You’d think people would leave out of shear boredom.

    It’s unfortunate that people who started out wanting to learn and find fellowship with likeminded people end up jumping from one miserable mini-cult to another, forever losing track of what they wanted to find in the first place.

    Sad. Glad I’m out of it.

  • seaside says:

    Martin: I know people who are still in PKG and they didn’t get any e-mails. It seems to me that Mr. Gray was making a public declaration on the RCG site for any PKGer’s that happen along?? That’s okay though, I was more than happy to pass that little tidbit of info on to others..can’t wait for the next episode..This is getting as good as Jericho.

  • Debbie says:

    Martin, according to what I have read from your last few posts you seemingly speak with some special knowledge or authority re: RCG practices – are you a member or perhaps an employee?

    I had a look at the RCG website – In the video I watched about David Pack which was 4 or so minutes, the first 3 minutes or so where about Herbie & WCG and stated twice that David Pack was personally taught by Herbie. Looks to me like a Herbie-clone – piles of literature, TV broadcast, and new building. Their manner of ‘preaching the gospel of the kingdom’ is similar to a huge money making business with it’s slick advertising and appeals.

    It’s been quite a while since I cracked open a bible – as I recall jesus kept it simple as he taught about the kingdom of god – in those stories of jesus, he didn’t just talk it , he demonstrated it in action by helping the cast down, healing the sick, feeding the hungry and comforting the suffering.

  • martin says:

    RCG has a public policy regarding blogs and such. So they would not cross-link to blogs. It is public knowledge (you may or may have to dig for such, but I happen to be aware of it).

    If you don’t think RCG is a a good “switch” for PKGers that is fine, the point I was trying to make is that there are posts saying that RCG is trying to hide information, this is simply not the case.

    I go by previous things they have done in regards to other ministers who have left a splinter to join RCG. They have done the same thing, pretty much every time.

    The Adrian email/letter, appears to me, to have been first sent to some portion of the PKG member from Adrian himself, and re-posted on the RCG blog, presumably Adrian and RCG are currently in contact with each other.

    As far as the jurors, their posting here has given MikeDDTFA implicit permission to make their comments available for public consumption, as they involve legalities (ie the jurors were not allowed to do so at one time, but were later given permission), I take it that RCG would avoid posting such comments, one for legal reasons, and another they don’t cross-link or site from blogs like this (again a matter of policy).

  • Atrocious says:

    I am convinced that those who hold on to Armstrong’s views are not looking to make life better for fellow human beings. They, IMO, do not believe that Jesus Christ came the first time because they hold to all the doctrines and stuff that happened before Jesus died and was resurrected. Yes, they latch on to things like holy days, the sabbath, etc, claiming that THOSE are the indisputable TRUTHS, which they are not. Armstrong found a different way to suck in those that were turned off with traditional Christianity and took on the same world-view as the Pharisees in biblical days.

    And, I am convinced that all the Armstrong splinters are following the same business path as Herbert Armstrong did. Some worse than others, some more liberal, some more conservative, but all are cults. All discourage free thinking and questioning.

    Sick sick sick! (LOL)

  • martin says:

    If you are a PKG member and wish to view the attachment document/information. Then his email address is listed on the RCG blog.

    It is highly probably that most of it is sourced from here anyway.

    I don’t think he would email out this information for non-PKG members, I am not sure, I am just guessing. (it would be a mute point for non-PKGers)

  • daughter of a follower says:

    Can I just say that the WCG today is quite a different organisation to that of yesterday which is a good reason why they have changed their name to GCI and distanced themselves from most the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. The groups that broke away and cling to the name Church of God have not done that.

  • Camaris says:

    I like the idea that God – the founder and arcitect of all matter and substance in a universe unfathomable light years across – is dead keen that we all treat the “Sabbath ” (and i’m still not sure when this is) is kept (i presume this means do nothing?) by people. And this is some sort of “truth” people get animated about? Seems a bit underwhelming to me, but there we go! I suppose its something the architect of the universe might care about, but i confess to having serious doubts. 🙂 what about leap years when we shorten the year and man made “sabbaths” all shift by a day? I suppose you need to grow up with this sort of thing simply accepted as incontroverible “truth” to take it seriously.

  • Camaris says:

    Why don’t cult people demand more thrilling truths? Anyone?

  • martin says:

    The day of the month, or length of the month changes, but as far as I know, the weekly cycle has not changed.

    There are proposals for calendars where this is not so, but that’s another story.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    One of the criticisms leveled against the new WCG/GCI is that it’s governmental structure is the same as Herbie’s. And Ron’s for that matter. Which is that whatever one man decides is what it is. Has GCI really changed in that regard? If Joe Jr decided to 180 back to Armstrongism, is there a board in place that could override him?

  • Velvet says:

    Yanno, I sorta sympathized with Adrian, and was going to suggest the Grays give the true True Church another shot…apparently the NZ minister is not drinking the Babylonian Kool-Aid…neither has he gone off into other doctrines the way, for instance, the Packatollah has. The Church in NZ even still has a Feast site, AND keeps the Holy Days! (Which is more than can be said for the Church in Canada, sadly.) If I hadn’t already registered for another Feast site, I might very well have ended up knocking on Gavin’s door….which he might have promptly slammed in my face, screaming with horror and revulsion, but such was fortunately not to be. 🙂 So Adrian’s remark, here, is a blatant untruth:

    ” I have found where God’s True Church is: God’s hand is most evident there. The organization I speak of is doing the Work of God. In fact, the size and speed of the Work is staggering! This organization is experiencing abundant blessings, incredible growth and many miracles. It is a place that looks and feels the same as the Church did when it was on track under Mr. Armstrong.”

    Everything I’ve read from Pack’s group is completely unrecognizable to the Church that I was born and raised in; for instance, duck is considered unclean; and Pentecost is kept on Monday, regardless of the fact that when the Church was “on track under Mr. Armstrong,” that very error was corrected (as proof that God’s true Church is led by progressive revelation…not stagnant, long-disproven revelations…So what’s Adrian’s motive here?

    By the end of the linked entry (which I only skimmed), I finally clued in.

    I think, not having read any of the other comments yet, Adrian jumped ship for Pack’s crowd, because he stands a higher chance of retaining his ordination…which seems to be a symptom of most of the unconverted members of the Church, both within and without its doors.

    The tough question is, how did so many unconverted people get ordained IN the Church in the first place? I don’t refer to Witless Weinland’s ordinations, those are obviously bogus (and anyone who was dunked by him, should seriously start shopping around to get properly baptized, if they’re so inclined). Then again, prophecy is instructive that it was the leaders of the people who led the Church into the errors and idol-worship that led to the captivity in the first place….

    If any PKG members are thinking of following the Grays over to Pack’s crowd (Why would you follow men? Jesus is, was, and always will be, the Head of the True Church.), I would only warn you to pray and fast about it, and consider whether the motives of the man you are following (if you choose not to follow Christ) are pure. And if they aren’t, why would you take him (or any other mere mortal) as an example??

  • Velvet says:

    “Pack said just a few months ago that any minister that is not in RCG is in the synagogue
    of satan, and bound for the lake of fire – members too.”

    Ohhh suuuuuuuure. Exceeeeept, that prophecy (in Rev. 2:9), unfortunately for the Packatollah, actually refers to these folks, who have been trying, since the Sixties, to turn the house of Judah to worshipping the pagan idols of trinitarianism…..Whilst maintaining the ceremonial laws (and ritualistic trappings) of Rabbinical Judaism…..THAT fulfills the prophecy much better than Pack’s smoke and mirrors, doesn’t it??

  • martin says:

    Velvet says
    “and Pentecost is kept on Monday”

    RCG keeps Pentecost on a Sunday, it has never kept it on a Monday.

    re the duck…..don’t know…..I personally don’t think so, but as far as RCG’s stance on it, don’t know.

  • martin says:

    “Pack said just a few months ago that any minister that is not in RCG is in the synagogue
    of satan, and bound for the lake of fire – members too.”

    “Pack said just a few months ago that any minister that is not in RCG is in the synagogue
    of satan” yes, he did say that.

    “and bound for the lake of fire – members too.” not so sure about this part.

  • Velvet says:

    ” Too bad that Adrian’s research did not include the information re: Dave Pack 2007
    Clarion Call (similar to Ronnie’s Total Resolve)”

    Hard to find that now, unless you know where to look (Is AW still up? There should be a few entries there, if Gavin hasn’t taken it down again. Yeah yeah I’m too lazy to check.)

    The Baptist hireling who screeched the loudest (and wrote the most) about the Clarion Call sermon has removed all his stuff from the Net, because he got called out for running a scam message board, ostensibly for survivors of WCG, “respecting perspectives from all walks of life,” but it was really an altar-calling scam, where he sent nasty PMs saying “You are being offensive to Christians and Christianity” to non-Baptists who said things that were representative of being “from all walks of life” instead of strictly Baptist-kosher stuff. (IOW, he was setting HIMSELF up in God’s place, to judge others. Charming, no?)

    Long story short, the best posts about the Clarion Call sermon are sadly in the wind. And if you think the ministers or former ministers of the Church are somehow unique in being liars and hypocrites, think again. None of them, no matter what they say or do, can yet hold a candle to the pure, poisonous evil, of the hireling professing Christian (falsely-so-called) ministers that are afoot in the world, and only growing stronger, as the Beast Power of Dominionist Evangelical Christianity grows day by day.

  • Velvet says:

    ” I fear that people departing from the PKG probably have a problem with the >>fowl<< language some of you use here on this forum."

    Whassamatter, you chicken?? (Sorry. Couldn’t resist.)

    Back in the day, there used to be a moratorium on cussing here. Whatever happened to that, Mike?

  • Velvet says:

    “Can I just say that the WCG today is quite a different organisation to that of yesterday
    which is a good reason why they have changed their name to GCI and distanced
    themselves from most the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. The groups that broke away
    and cling to the name Church of God have not done that.”

    I’ve been attending services (and I have attended one Feast of Tabernacles) with the Church since 2011, and I can attest that this is 100% true and correct. The Church has also VASTLY divorced itself from the Evangelical antagonism, hostility, and accusations it hurled at faithful members directly after the changes. No longer is there this drive to force every member to gag on their empty, idolatrous Jesus-figurehead. At most, only the American “denominational leadership” whines about it every so often, but most pastors I’ve spoken/interacted directly with, have ZERO problem with there being faithful members still in, or returning to, the Church.

    No longer are there shouting matches after services, or even worse, one group standing on one side of the hall, and another on the opposite side. Now, you hear things like “God made the Sabbath for man,” from the pulpit, unlike the days immediately post-changes, when you heard stuff like, “If you keep the Sabbath, YOU’RE going to HELL!” (There’s no such thing, so how about NO.) Too, there is a great deal of regret, from ministers and brethren alike, for how we were (mis)treated by the newly-minted pagan Evangelicals shortly after the changes. (Regret, apart from the fact that they don’t see it was fulfilling actual Biblical prophecy, that is.)

    There are a lot of things the Church has also dispensed with, that were stumbling-blocks, in the old days. Now, we truly are FREE to keep God’s commandments, and His Holy Days, WITHOUT being told EITHER that we are wrong to do so, OR that we are doing it the wrong way (which was where a lot of the deacons and elders went wrong, in my experience)!

    (As for the name change, which I realize is a deal-breaker for some, that was actually prophesied for the Church under the captivity. Read Isaiah. The bits about pieces of the truth being given to strangers is relevant as well.)

    I can tell you, as someone who was born and raised in the Church, the splinter groups DO NOT “hold fast to the faith once delivered” as they all claim to. Some preach dead works without faith (whereas the American “denominational leaders” proselytize a dead faith and a false gospel, but like I say, nobody really pays them much mind anyhow), some splinter groups deny that Jesus was, is, and always will be, fully God and fully man (there are PT articles from the 1930s that state this fact POINT-BLANK, yet some splinter groups claim that was a “doctrinal teaching from the 1970s that paved the way for trinitarianism” — how about NO), there are some splinter groups that are solely “focus on the family” and there’s one guy in the UK who keeps bleating about how God does NOT give people trials (methinks he doth protest overmuch) to build our character. Then there are the fifth columnists IN the Church, who seek after a MORTAL “man like unto Moses,” conveniently forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that the Church always taught that this (Deut 18:18) was a prophecy about Jesus.

    As for human leaders. Jesus said “I will build MY CHURCH.” When you are spiritually starving, as you jump from one splinter group to another, can I just quote an earlier church that also had (and predictably, lost) the dispensation of the truth, the Quakers? “Christ Jesus has come to teach His people HIMSELF.”

    There is one True Church. There is one Head of that Church, accessible through prayer, fasting (for the Bridegroom is no longer with us) and diligent Bible study (of many translations, withOUT the “inerrancy” heresy).

    It’s a simple question, Christians! Do you follow Christ, or do you follow men?

  • martin says:

    I emailed Adrian

    It consists of a pdf reprint of the RCG article on Weinland

    The second one is a *.wps file format (I had to download an app to view that one, as it’s not a common format, at least for me)
    It contain juror comments sourced mostly from this site (probably all).

    (The first time I emailed him, the attachments did not show, and he had to resend with another emailer)

  • Velvet says:

    “One of the criticisms leveled against the new WCG/GCI is that it’s governmental structure
    is the same as Herbie’s. And Ron’s for that matter. Which is that whatever one man
    decides is what it is. Has GCI really changed in that regard? If Joe Jr decided to 180 back
    to Armstrongism, is there a board in place that could override him?”

    Short answer:

    The day Junior recants his pagan monarchy over Mystery Babylon and turns back to the truth, will be the same day Porcine Air starts running twice-hourly express flights to the frozen wastelands of Hell.

    Slightly longer answer:

    The actual ministers on the ground, in the Church, whom I have interacted with since 2011, have completely abandoned any governmental or hierarchical structure whatsoever. They’re just members of the Church, just like the rest of us, now. (A very good change, in my opinion!) Ordinary members who just happen to have the thankless task of public speaking. Which is just fine with me!

    As for the Americans. I think they may WANT to retain the Levitical government them-vs-us divide the Church mistakenly started pushing really heavily in the mid-1980s (that’s why they’re so heavily into throwing around the “theological” nonsense, to make it seem like they’re better or more intellectual than the rest of us, the ordinary members and ministers). The members and the ministers definitely wouldn’t/won’t pay any attention to that, though. In truth, we really don’t pay any attention to the American “denominational leadership” at all. Beyond bankrolling them a small stake to keep them occupied with whatever it is they actually do, e.g., the YouTube videos, rub elbows with the court astrologers, etc., etc. There’s really a pretty big disconnect between Junior and the Babylonian court, and the rest of us here on the ground in Jerusalem.

    (Yes, there are “boards” and “committees” and “pastor teams” and a bunch of other bureaucratic babblings and nonsense, but it makes my head spin, and I just can’t make heads nor tails of it all, so I don’t even bother. Plus, it’s a slightly different setup, from one country, to the next.)

    Before you say anything about “the small stake” it really is very small — only a fraction of our first tithe ever ends up in the hands of “the royal court.” Second tithe is no longer mandatory, neither is the tithe of the tithe, but I look at it like I’m saving for a trip, that just happens to be the Feast…so, would there be a problem, if I saved so much from each pay to take a trip to, say, Florida? No? Then what’s wrong with doing exactly the same thing, for essentially the same purpose?

    As for where the rest of the tithes go…I was initially ambivalent about paying what was essentially two Caesars, but if the published reports are any indication (or if they’re even true), some of the tithes do still go to the poorer congregations in the Church, i.e., water wells for the members of the African congregations, things like that. Hardly comparable to the “building fund” of the old days!

    The Church has also retained the policy (one that not even the Anglicans around here have adopted!) that those on welfare or retired, are EXEMPT from tithing. Some retirees still send in Holy Day offerings though.

  • Velvet says:

    ” RCG keeps Pentecost on a Sunday, it has never kept it on a Monday.”

    I stand corrected. Funny. I thought that’s what it said, in “There Came a Falling Away.”

  • jack says:

    Anyone who has found the “true church ” is deluding themselves. The real church does not require money, it requires charity. And that means charity to those less fortunate than YOU. What benefit is it if you give ten percent of your paycheck to someone who makes twice as much as you do? That would be a stupid thing to do.

    Why not give your gift to someone who needs it instead of an organization that is doing “the work of God”.

    “The true church”! — what a laugh I get every time I see those words. That’s almost as funny as “doing the work of God “.

    I’d like to quote two REAL truths :

    “People are gonna believe what they want to believe ”
    and
    “If you have been deceived, you don’t know that you have been deceived, because YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED!!! “

  • jack says:

    Sadly, those two quotes are from Ronald Weinland and Herbert W Armstrong. Probably the only truth that ever came out of their filthy lying mouths. Everything else they said was pure unconstituted orange juice. Oooops. I meant pure unconstituted bullshit.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Interesting Jack Hahahaha 😀 …..I’ve known a couple of ministers in my time, and their kids had massive drug addiction problems,
    People became reluctant to donate, as everone thought they mighta been funding ” habits ” to keep ’em out of trouble.

    There’s only two truths in my book, & that is: ‘ Cash is too hard to come by, to just give it away ‘ & ‘ No-one will look after me when I’m old, if I don’t prepare now ‘ ! 😀

  • Jocko says:

    Looking forward to your next sermon Ronnie. And while you’re at it how about a new post on your website. That June 15th post is so outdated especially with all that’s been going on lately. Why not come in from the wilderness for a while and start typing on your laptop. And BTW, In you last post you forgot to mention your five felony convictions so why not start off with that order of business to set the record straight.

    Afterwards, perhaps you can fill us in on what type of payment schedule you’ve worked out with the both the IRS and your legal defense team. You know what Mr. Armstrong use to say “Accountability-Each and every one of us needs to be held accountable”. I can close my eyes and picture him saying those very words right now. Bet you can too Ronnie. If anyone else can think of any other issues they’d like Ronnie’s to address in his next post please let him know and I’m sure he’ll oblige. Thanks for your time ol’ most powerful prophet of all mankind.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Hey yea Jocko, hahahaha 😀 I’d simply ask that he forget about his re-visting of his Moses in the desert thing, ( its wear’in a bit thin with the viewers ), and nut-out someth’in more origional, ( he’s done the Moses + Eygpt + desert thing before ) , and his sandals must be wear’in down, and gett’in a bit smelly by now ? ( 15% of his income walk’in will attest to that ), and he should lay down plans for a new and exciting scam for us to mock, mockity mock………well his faithfull maybe leaving, but I won’t ! I’m gonna stick with me ‘ol powerfully mocked Buddy, to the end ! In a very powerful truly awesome and incredible, wonderfully powerfull way ? ( and so forth , and so forth ) who’s on 3rd ? hehehe 😀

  • Camaris says:

    Good post by Jack I think.

    The “true church”, where “God is REALLY working”, “working with people”, “Hold fast to ALL the truths”.

    All these phrases and more like them seem like lunacy to me. It seems like the height of solipsim, vanity and wishful thinking of a childlike variety to me, and luckily for me I’ll never understand it probably. I’d thought reading this blog that there were more participants a little like me – as in no experience whatsoever of the nutty “small Church” concept of Christ/Lord “working” directly somehow with a small group of people etc. But recently I can see that many people here have at least a background in this sort of environment where on some level and at some point, the conditioning has been there to have made these sorts of concepts seem at least normal.

    So normal in fact that you get posts like the one from the Adrian chap – who had insight enough to describe the woods absolutely perfectly (with his critique of Weinland-ism) but couldn’t plot the way out of them. Why? Because the very idea of “having some truths” and “working with God” or God “working with you in a very powerful way” is so entrenched into his thinking that no amount of theft or abuse can, at the moment, deflect him from needing a “Church”. I don’t actually like to use the word “Church” when referring to these flinty-eyed spit-flecked cults. I’m surprised so many others are happy to call these things “churches” but recoil if someone types ‘fuck’!

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Hahahahaha, Camaris, no,no,no ( 😀 we know what you’re say’n ) , but Adrian went over to join Dave ” Pack ” , with a ” P, a “, not the way you’ve spelled it ! 😀
    Don’t know if his friends have a nickname for him though ? 😀

  • When the ship hits the sand, you have to cover your act or you won’t be worth spit.

    Just sayin’.

  • Atrocious says:

    I wonder if RW is going to mention the defection of Adrian Gray in his “sermon” tomorrow. And is he going to rant about the apostasies of the RCG? Is he finally going to admit his errors? Will he mention his conviction of tax evasion? Or, will he just go on as usual, painting himself in the corner/digging his hole deeper/making himself look more of an anal orifice? I wonder when his followers will start exiting en mass. Stay tuned to this day time soap opera for the latest episode.

  • martin says:

    If he mentions Adrian Gray, they will go to RCG site, read the article, probably email him for extra information, and probably lose a bunch a people.

    So I doubt it….

    But he is dumb and self righteous, so he may mention it without naming him……

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I expect he’ll make a non-specific (without mentioning names) to Adrian as an example of a bad person who made the wrong decision.

    I know of 3 other elders who have quit PKG. The only name he mentioned was Ikwueme’s.

  • chacha says:

    Regarding: “While not personally offended by Camaris use of the f-bomb…”

    I saw a great interview with Robin Williams. The interviewer asked a question about “using the f-bomb”. He replied, “It is not a BOMB. Nobody DIED!”

    😉 Just sayin’

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I started swearing like a trooper when I left PKG, as well as doing other ‘naughty’ things….. Aussies I believe are well known for swearing too. I admit, it is not nice – especially for a female. But it feels so good! Anyway I am making a concerted effort not to, now I am a mother….. I don’t want his first word to be one I use too bleeping often!

  • Rterlecki says:

    Maybee it was me sorry kirrliy
    Did I say
    Sept 24 this crook is going prison
    I hate crooks and there familys laura is a crook too

  • Steve says:

    Who exactly are adrian and cindy? Are they the young couple who got married in 2008? The american and the english woman? Just wondering as if it is, i met them….i just dont remember what their names were, its been so long so i thought i would ask

  • gullible says:

    ron will do whatever he can to avoid any collateral damage to his flock and begin to lose faith in him. So, if ron should decide to mention of elders leaving, it will only be about how sorry he feels for their foolishness in leaving ron and his “truths”; how it can also happen to PKGers should they stop fighting their evil nature (diminishing ron’s income, of course), and why can’t they just wait a little bit longer until the great tribulation ACTUALLY arrives. Imagine what PKGer’s will lose out by throwing in the towel just when ron’s share price is about to rise exponentially. ron urges his investors to take big risk in him and promises they will receive big rewards in the next life, and even possibly in this life should the great tribulation ACTUALLY arrives. ron is your only hope!! The catch is, that ron has an excellent track record in delaying hours, to days, to weeks, to months to years, to generations, to light years, etc. So, ron is looking for long term investors with unlimited cash to throw away. Those who are tithes exempt are welcome to prevent his flock number from reaching zero, which might scare away potential investors (with unlimited cash).

    ron is only too happy to delay the news of his felony convictions too. Time in this case is on ron’s side, as everyone prefers new news and not old news. ron in 24th September, can mention to his flock about his conviction as if it’s a non-event, and they will just treat it as if it’s old news having being taught to always look forward to the future. They have also been taught to forgive, so they will naturally forgive ron for lying and withholding information (for their own good of course, as ron will explain).

  • daughter of a follower says:

    Adrian and Cindy are the head minister and his wife in New Zealand.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Steve, you’re probably thinking of Bo Williams from Texas who married Libby in the UK early in 2008. Seems they met at the 2007 feast.

  • YYZ says:

    I don’t listen to any of Whine-land’s sermons, no need to, but did I get this right?..he hasn’t told his followers yet about his court convictions?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Pretty much, YYZ. He stated that he won’t dignify his accusers with a response. He did send out the email I put on my blog to some elders, but the distribution of that to the rank and file was spotty. So there are some PKG members who do not know that he was convicted. But the ones who do have a ready excuse for him, just a big misunderstanding.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    What all these ministers, self proclaimed apostles, prophets, witnesses, elijahs, Isahahas, and assorted loops , are like those side-show sprukers, outside their tents , at the local fair, promising that they’ll show you something amazing, all ya gotta do is buy a ticket ! The fact is , once you come out of the side show tent, you are embarrassed and laughing at yourself for being so sucked-in by a impulsive moment of curiosity…………… and if you go back to the guy with the microphone and complain, he’ll tell you that you were’nt looking in the right place, or your just not smart enough to see such amazement.

    So no matter how much the ‘ saved ‘ pay, believe in timelines, pray, hope and listen to shakey sermons and go to phoney Feasts and fasts, they wont ever see Jesus Christ , catch a glimpse of ‘ the Kingdom ‘, or end up hav’in a beer with the 12 apostles, whilst they are alive on this earth, ………. ( Jesus never had a Church ) , and doing his work, and preparing themselves, means visiting the sick & elderly, giving the blind man in the street 20 dollars, volonteering at the local hospital or community centre etc; even teaching their kids to do the same, or spending more time with them .

    Would’nt it be embarrassing, if on the day one leaves this earth, and Christ askes why did you waste your life with false teachers, and ignored the sick, poor and the blind-in-faith ? 🙂

  • jack635 says:

    Would’nt it be embarrassing, if on the day one leaves this earth, and Christ askes why did you waste your life with false teachers, and ignored the sick, poor and the blind-in-faith ?

    I liked that comment Budgie. Which begs the question to the PKG members: Why ARE you giving your money to a rich fat preacher who drives a BMW and has falsely prophesied many things, when Jesus said to give to the poor and the widow and the orphan? How much money does the PKG give to those who do not qualify for Social Assistance, or do not have the mental skill to apply for assistance.

    What did you do last time you saw a bum on the street asking for spare change? Did you judge him as an addict, alcoholic, or lazy? Turn your head full of “TRUTHS” away from him, as you walk by in disgust? “If you did it not to the least of these, you did it not to me” Why do you follow Ronald Weinland and say you are following Jesus, but disregard everything he taught? Have you not become exactly what you despise? A prideful haughty hippocrite, selfishly accusing others of being deceived by Satan.

  • Jocko says:

    Jack said “A prideful haughty hypocrite, selfishly accusing others of being deceived by Satan”.
    And those sitting in Ron’s basement tomorrow afternoon will be doing just that.
    Earlier this year Ron just happened to mention that Satan and his demons sit in on all his sermons to learn the latest “truth”.
    Will Satan be present in Ron’s basement tomorrow afternoon-Or will he just send one of his demons to take notes?

  • Atrocious says:

    “Will Satan be present in Ron’s basement tomorrow afternoon-Or will he just send one of his demons to take notes?”

    Yes, Satan will be present. He’ll be the one doin’ all the talkin’! He’ll be the one rantin’ and ravin’ and chewin’ out the ones sittin’ on the foldin’ chairs.

  • jack says:

    Earlier this year Ron just happened to mention that Satan and his demons sit in on all his sermons to learn the latest “truth”.

    Amazing that ron would say something like that. But somehow that doesn’t surprise me. And the PKG just sit there and listen to his nonsense. They are all mesmerized or in some kind of stupor. Ron is fattened by his sorcery.

  • Mantayo says:

    Jocko says:
    August 10, 2012 at 21:52

    “Earlier this year Ron just happened to mention that Satan and his demons sit in on all his sermons to learn the latest “truth”.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLddJ1WceHQ

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    ” Yes, Satan will be present. He’ll be the one doin’ all the talkin’! He’ll be the one rantin’ and ravin’ and chewin’ out the ones sittin’ on the foldin’ chairs. ”

    Ha ! thats it Atrocious, spoken and written like an Aussie ! ( ya been practice’in ) I see ! 😀
    At this point, I must admit that I, play this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ2dcVYdpm0 , on your ” Memorial Day ” ( May 27 ) , and our ” Anzac Day ” ( April 25 ) as well as our Anthem,
    with hand on heart and a slight tear in the eye ! ……… as I believe its about faith and hope , giving thanks, and helping one-another, ……. too bad Ron and Co. don’t seem to harken to this,
    and realise, that life is not all about their own Selfish beliefs ? 🙁

  • Jocko says:

    Yes Jack I heard him say it with my own ears. It was during one of his “Ronnie Moments” when he lets loose with what ever fantasy is twisting around his brain at the time. You’ve listened to enough sermons to identify the Ronnie moments I’m sure.

    He then went on to say that this is especially true around the time of the feast because of the multiple sermons. I guess he forgot about last years feast, his dream the night before and his last great day sermon or perhaps he wouldn’t have brought the subject up.

    When you’re a pathological liar, con man and sociopath all mixed in one it must be difficult to keep track of all you’ve said and done.

    Mantayo-Good One.

  • Steve says:

    Ah yea mike, thats right, i remember he was from texas now you mention it, thanks

  • Doutful.

    Satan and the demons have more interesting and profitable things to do than listening to Rotten Ronnie’s sermons, just as the rest of us do.

    They got bored with him a very long time ago.

    Why mess with an automated system once you have it installed?

    With Weinland, Satan and the demons don’t even have to check periodically on the wickedness of the Weinlands, since they have taken on a life of their own, once they got their stake in evil.

    Well, OK, maybe they drop in here to see what’s on the forum so they don’t have to listen to the crazy boring sermons — but it’s just for entertainment.

  • jack says:

    Oh well. Its raining today, so I just might turn on the ole laptop and listen to ron’s sermon (LOL) today. I wonder what a preacher sounds like when he’s talking in his basement with a department of Justice tracking device locked to his ankle? I also wonder what goes through the minds of those who give money to a convicted criminal under house arrest /home detention? I wonder how long I can listen before I silence Ron with my disconnect button? So many questions…….
    in six weeks false prophet Weinland will receive his punishment. (In absentia?) In a couple days it will be 40 days till punishment is poured on his head from on high.(Judge Reeves’ bench)

  • Now for you people in the PKG for your consideration:

    Sure, Ronald Weinland is a false prophet and he’s abundantly proved that multiple times, but…

    Here’s the deal, and we have to ask, when he goes to Prison for Income Tax evasion, as a prophet of God, shouldn’t he have seen that coming? Wouldn’t God reveal that to His faithful servant?

    The fact is, you are following a fat old fool who is full of himself and living off of you.

    So what are you going to do when the sentence is handed down as it will be in 40 days?

    Are you going to keep following him, even as you did after May 27th? I mean, how many chances are you giving this con man?

    Or you finally going to pack it up (but not with David Pack) and declare, “I’m outta here” just as Scripture commands?

    It’s your money, so why shouldn’t you be able to use it on the things you want now?

  • pkg deluded members says:

    No Douglas. You don’t understand the truth because you can’t see the truth because Ron I mean God didn’t give it to you. Now hold on while I go ask ron what I should say.

  • I believe you will find the truth in the Commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness…”.

    Miss that and all is lost.

  • jack635 says:

    Can’t you tell by the icon it was me? lol

  • jack635 says:

    I’ve come to the conclusion that all of the current PKG members are lost. As evidenced by the Adrian episode, those who do leave Ron will just go to another COG. Perhaps some who read this blog will wise up and get out altogether, but most if not all are completely deluded and lost to reason. If Ron shows up for his sentencing and goes to prison, the lost will just find another source of flavoraide.

  • jack635 says:

    After listening to Ron’s home detentioned sermon today, I guess I should have said the “sneaky conniving” Adrian episode.

  • Jocko says:

    “Why mess with an automated system once you have it installed”.

    So Ron doesn’t even need a software upgrade or a tweak every once in a while.

    This means the May 27th = we move forward campaign was pre-programmed into the system years ago so the guy in the Netherlands had nothing to do with it. That’s it, I’ve had it. I’ll never believe Ron again, that’s for sure.

  • Jocko, he’s such an old model, Satan and the demons just don’t want to waste any more time on him.

    The firmware has degraded so a software update isn’t even feasible at this point.

  • jack635 says:

    I don’t know why Adrian didn’t start up his own COG splinter so he too could rake in the tithes. He sounds like something Ron would’ve said:

    *“The absolute stench coming from PKG teachings should have us all vomiting” Especially if he yells when he says it.

    * from Adrian’s open letter.

  • Jocko says:

    Jack, How about this quote from Adrian’s letter.

    “Ron has a saying: to look at other teachings or criticism of him is to go through the garbage bin, and even a little look leaves a stench on you”.

  • I make sure I haven’t eaten for several hours before looking at the Weinland garbage bin, just for that reason.

    It’s always good to get a long hot shower afterward.

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Wow, another disappointing ( for the flock ) nothing sermon, and he seems to be worried about the lack of tithes sent in for the up-coming feast…… hinting about those who have left, although I noticed this time , he did not ask, ” where would they go? “, probably ’cause last time he asked that question, he got he answer the very next day !

    Its like Walley-world,Whoops ! Weinland-world, where he’ll take you for a ride alright ! Like, they get on the rollercoaster ride, and he does all the scream’in ! hehehe 😀

  • martin says:

    Do they send the whole second tithe in??? Or just a portion?

  • Good question.

    At best it should be a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe of a tithe.

    At best.

    My two cents worth.

  • seaside says:

    Who was it from the Netherlands that made that famous comment after the non-return of Jesus Christ? “WE MOVE FORWARD.”

  • Velvet says:

    He’s ratcheting up the rhetoric…used to be, in 2008, PKGers were “entertaining demons” by visiting the blogs that were actively anti-Weinland. Now the demons are sitting in and taking notes?? Either he wants to make it sound like he’s getting crazier and crazier (watch for a psychiatric component on the appeal), or he really is the consummate liar, and only believes absolutely in the second that he says it, and then promptly forgets all about it, until he gets caught, then has to rationalize it. And boy howdy, do those hypocrites hate getting caught / called out on it. Though IRL doing that can usually bring nasty repercussions, if you’re not strong in your faith and close to God….

    To call people like this out on their lies, however, IS following in the footsteps of Jesus (search for “hypocrites” on BibleGateway, with the words of Christ in red option turned on; go ahead, I’ll wait) so I don’t think “Satan and the demons” will be “taking notes” for the reasons the Two Witlesses will be trying to convince the members they are….

  • Budgie Smugglers says:

    Velvet, I don’t think Ron would play the psychiatric card….. as he’d be forever so labelled, and a possible risk to safety of others, ( never trusted ) in a leadership position. also, would’nt he then need special permisson from Authorities for air travel , & chairing or holding meetings ? & forced into expensive treatment programmes ? ……..not a good way to be remembered No , he’d be better off doing the time , ( as some kinda religious Martyr )………

  • Velvet says:

    Budgie Smuggler,

    To my knowledge, there are no such restrictions in North America of which you speak…maybe it’s a UK thing? You’re probably right that Witless Weinland wouldn’t want that attached to him even if he could spin it as a “the world did me wrong” manifesto. He’s too crafty for that. Then again, I haven’t listened to a Weinland sermon since 2008, and I keep forgetting he’s not drinking his own Kool-Aid…..As for the religious martyr aspect, the Church always used to recommend reading Foxe’s Book of Martyrs (Armstrong even recommended it, on one of the telecasts that can still be found on Youtube); nothing like reading that book, to give one a perspective on REAL persecution, IMO. Which is where most of the splinter groups have gone off the rails, thinking that what the Americans did in the ’90s was “persecution” — not even close. If the Nazi-agenda-fuelled Beast Power of Evangelicalism rises in this age, however, the Mark of the Beast really WILL be enforced, and that’s a prophecy of the Church you CAN bet on. (oogle “Dominionism” and read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933#Hitler.27s_speech_before_the_passing_of_the_Enabling_Act and then tell me those who push “replacement theology” (encapsulated in Hitler’s speech), are not working for exactly the same ends, to bring about a trinitarian, Sunday-keeping, One World Government and One World Religion. Fourth Reich, anybody? Hmmm, seems to me there was someone, a few years ago, predicting just exactly that…now who could that have been?

    Not Witless Weinland, for sure. For crying out loud, the man denies Jesus! Never mind the second tithe thing, what more evidence do you need???

  • Charlie says:

    Velvet,

    >SnoozeSnore< yadda yadda yadda. "A church prophecy you CAN count on."

    When are you people going to learn?

  • Velvet says:

    Charlie,

    Anyone who denies that neo-Nazism is on the rise in the world, really is sticking their head in the sand. Regardless of whether you are a believer or not.

    Did you even bother to read the link I posted? It’s from Wikipedia, I realize, but it’s still pretty sobering. Especially when you hear the professing Christians banging on about “atheist Hitler” (conveniently so, since they don’t want there to be any whiff of their REAL theology let loose amongst the general populace). Especialy when there are scenes like this and this on the European front.

    Hmm. Seems to me, there was ONE Church, 75 or so years ago, that was preaching the Nazis would rise and re-unify Europe again, under an ostensibly “Christian” One World Religion, which the Dominionists want to do — worse yet, the Dominionists (and their warrior workforce, the neo-Nazis) want to JOIN Church and State, which will then ENFORCE Sunday-keeping and trinitarianism, and will eliminate (by force/weapons/war) all other religions on the earth. Now where, oh where, have I heard rumours of such an agenda, before? I wonder…..

    That said. I do NOT believe this will happen in MY lifetime (just for the record, I’m a few years’ shy of 40), because the Church always taught the Rabbinical Jews preserved the Oracles of God, the Torah and the Calendar…though with the postponements, there’s been a bit of drift as far as the Holy Days are concerned, the overall calendar itself is still spot-on…and we are a long, long, long, ways from Tevet 6000 yet…..at 5772, to be precise, soon to be 5773, as of next month, with Trumpets….

  • Velvet says:

    Furthermore, Charlie, if you don’t want to read “snoozeSnore” stuff, please watch this video from Greece. Your objection may be, “I don’t speak Greek!” However, given the content of the video, I really, really think there’s absolutely NO language barrier, as far as getting the message across is concerned…..