Firmly on the Fence

Back in August, commenter Mal, who is intrigued by how Weinland’s timeline fits together,  expected to make a decision one way or the other at the beginning of this year.  Now that we’re one-seventh of the way into it, he has made his choice as stated in a comment:

Regarding RW, I’ll remain on the fence just now.

Mal went on to reference the latest disasters.  Speaking of which, just this last Saturday, Ron stated that his foollowers were to pray for an increase in the thunders which were to first strike Manasseh (the United States) as required by prophecy and then move onto Ephraim (the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand).  Yesterday, a devastating earthquake struck Christchurch, New Zealand.  But wait — the thunders were to strike the US first.  Is Ron going to claim that the Christchurch earthquake wasn’t a “thunder”?  Tell that to the friends and family of the 65 who were killed in the quake, and to all those who lost their homes.  Or maybe his stupid foollowers aren’t praying correctly.  Or maybe God is stupid, is not listening to Ron’s foollowers, and is ignorant of Ron’s prophecies.  We already know that God is a liar, who revealed the wrong dates of Ron’s first timeline:

41 Comments

  • randy terlecki says:

    thats what i’ve been telling my mother either ron or god is a lair be cause his time line didn’t happen and I’M ON GODS SIDE! ron’s the lair plus he said if it didn’t happen, he would step down because he would be a FALSE PROPHET. aim i right our aim i a lair

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    You’re quite correct, Randy. In fact, Ronnie made two separate statements about what he would/wouldn’t do if his prophecies failed: in December of 2007 and again in March of 2008. Then in June of 2008, his timeline revealed by God was set aside but he did not acknowledge being a false prophet.

    Ronald Weinland, false prophet and liar.

  • Whisper says:

    Ya those weather calamaties are just churning across the globe damaging this and destoying that. Well sort of… Well no less than the last 100 years, and just beecause Ron’s timeline (smirk…) is 63.65% complete and zilch has happened is no reason to not believe with all your heart and all your wallet ay? I’m just sure God ment for nothing to happen in the first 6/10ths of his GT, I mean the guy has a busy schedule and all and does not have time to get into the swing of things until… ah… well when will this not-so GT get rolling? Oh ya, it wont because Ron Weinland is a False Prophet! Oh mercy, what was I thinking, Ron even told us so.

  • randy terlecki says:

    mike, i’m having one of those day! but one more thing and i will stop for now. he forbids my mother and others to go on facebook and we all know why because the might get together and find out he is a false prophet. but in the mean time she is missing picture and statements from her kids, grandkids and greatgrandkids what asame, sorry guys just pissed. thanks for lending an ear!!!

  • Soooo, I guess Mal had better get comfortable with those fence pickets sticking into,. . . well, . . . errr, his posterior regions.

    There will *always* be disasters. The New Zealand earthquake, as devastating as it is for those who live there, is nothing out of the ordinary. Certainly Ronnie and his god could create a more dramatic statement than a relatively small quake in a very active seismic area. Looking at the list of earthquakes for 19th, 20th and 21st century occurrences, one gets the following from Wikipedia. Did Ronnie and his impotent god cause those too Mal?

    It looks to me that Ronnie’s god was most angry from 1929 through 1934. Considering the economy was a complete shambles then (far and away worse than today’s), and Japan and Germany were war mongering (which would eventually lead to the deaths of tens of millions of people), I would say that maybe Ronnie should backcast his prophecies instead of his failed attempts at forecasting.

    Date↓ Location↓ Magnitude↓ Fatalities↓ Further information↓
    08 Jul 1843 Wanganui 7 2 1843 Wanganui earthquake
    16 Oct 1848 Marlborough 7.5 3 1848 Marlborough earthquake
    23 Jan 1855 Wairarapa 8.2 9 1855 Wairarapa earthquake
    23 Feb 1863 Hawke’s Bay 7.5 Unknown
    19 Oct 1868 Cape Farewell 7.5 Unknown
    01 Sep 1888 North Canterbury7.1 0 1888 North Canterbury earthquake
    12 Feb 1893 Nelson 6.9 Unknown
    16 Nov 1901 Cheviot 6.9 1 1901 Cheviot earthquake
    09 Mar 1929 Arthur’s Pass 7.1 Unknown 1929 Arthur’s Pass earthquake
    17 Jun 1929 Murchison 7.8 17 1929 Murchison earthquake
    03 Feb 1931 Hawke’s Bay 7.9 256 1931 Hawke’s Bay earthquake
    13 Feb 1931 Hawke’s Bay 7.3 – 1931 Hawke’s Bay earthquake
    05 Mar 1934 Pahiatua 7.6 2
    24 Jun 1942 Wairarapa 7.2 0
    02 Aug 1942 Wairarapa 7.0 1
    26 Jun 1946 Lake Coleridge 6.2 0
    24 May 1968 Inangahua Junction7.0 3
    02 Mar 1987 Edgecumbe 6.3 0 1987 Edgecumbe earthquake
    13 May 1990 Weber 6.4 0 1990 Weber earthquake
    18 Jun 1994 Arthur’s Pass 6.7 0
    06 Feb 1995 East Cape 7.0 0
    22 Aug 2003 Fiordland 7.1 0
    22 Nov 2004 Puysegur Trench7.2 0
    20 Dec 2007 Gisborne 6.8 1 2007 Gisborne earthquake
    15 Jul 2009 Fiordland 7.8 0 2009 Fiordland earthquake
    04 Sep 2010 Christchurch 7.1 0 2010 Christchurch earthquake
    29 Sep 2010 White Island 6.4 0
    22 Feb 2011 Christchurch 6.3 75, as at 1145, 23 February 2011[12] 2011 Christchurch earthquake

  • Sorry, my description of the above list should have indicated it is only for New Zealand earthquakes.

    I’d like to ask Mal a question: What period in history can you point to that it could be definitively stated that were not signs pointing to Christ’s imminent return? Any date or period?

    Always wars and rumors of wars. Always nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom. Always earthquakes and other natural disasters. Always economic peril and people starving in the world (even Jesus said there would be poor always).

    From the time Christianity first started, including Peter and Paul, until the present day, Christians thought Jesus’ return was imminent. 2000 years of immanency. The first Apostles believed he was coming back in their life times. At the year 1000, people thought that year was a sign of Christ’s return. Napoleon was thought to be the Beast and many theories on how he fit 666 were believed. The era of World War II, IMO, had the most credible fitting of end-of-the-world scenarios including the only time nuclear weapons were ever used. The black plague, the white revolution in Russia, the end of the colonial powers in Africa and India, the billions of people killed by starvation, fires, earthquakes, revolutions, tsunamis, extreme winter weather, wars, despots, all long before our current era; . . . which of these do not fit those signs Mal?

  • Disappointed says:

    Mal, your quote:

    “To my mind, 2011 has begun in quite an extraordinary way. Events in the middle east show how rapidly a situation can develop. Weather is highly destructive and chaotic. Food supplies dwindling. Mass animal deaths. Economy improving? Based on what? Seems to me we are shaping up for an even bigger crash. The likelihood of world confrontation growing, with the added danger of nuclear weapons.”

    First, I am glad you have not decided to become a member of COG-PKG and I pray you never do. Like many other who post on this blog, I have a member of my family who has bought in to Mr. Weinland’s teachings, a casualty of his Google campaign of a few years ago. I can’t wait until next June so we can have him back, assuming Mr. Weinland hasn’t come up with a way to string them all along some more.

    Regarding your quote, I question why the beginning of the year is of any relevance…history is full of 2-month stretches with multiple skirmishes, storms, earthquakes, etc. As a nation, the U.S. has never been closer to nuclear war than during the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962, and we had already detonated 2 in wartime. Speaking of global wars, we’ve been through two within the last 100 years, but many more before that…even the American Revolution can be considered a Global War. Our economy COMPLETELY collapsed in 1929…this latest is nowhere near that trouble. We’ve seen ridiculous inflation and interest rates over the past 40 years. It goes on and on.

    I don’t believe everything is hunky dory (we live in a fallen world and the world as we know it never will be “hunky dory”), but even more so, I don’t believe these latest events are evidence of anything Mr. Weinland says. I take God at His word and don’t believe that everything in the Bible that contradicts Mr. Weinland is a “mistranslation.” How can I be so confident? Because I refuse to believe Mr. Weinland and yet God is still present in my life and continues to bless me and my family. How can that be if I am “mocking God” as Mr. Weinland suggests? It can’t be of the enemy, because the enemy does not provide joy, only senses of temporary satisfaction that, by definition, do not last. So it is of God, given through the work His Son did on the cross for you and me. God bless.

  • Disappointed says:

    Mal (and everyone else),
    Please don’t take my previous post as trying to pile on…I started typing it much earlier, got busy with other stuff, and then finished it and hit send. By then, Ron (a different Ron) had posted his remarks which I just now read. Sorry for all the redundancies in our individual posts. God bless.

  • randy terlecki says:

    we are not pile on or ganging up on mal, he stated that we where blind to whats going on in the world. sorry mal if u think that.

  • Mal says:

    Mike

    You misquoted me. I said ‘expect’ not ‘promise’, to make a decision at the start of 2011.
    As I already said, to my mind quite extraordinary events have already taken place in the first few weeks of 2011. So my decision is delayed.

    My earlier post (via the link in your intro) still summarizes quite well my overall thoughts about RW.

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Ron (a diff R)

    As for Christ returning at any other time in history, that would always have been false as far as I’m concerned, because I believe in the tribulation and the start of the 1000 year reign of Christ occurring after 6000 years (which according to Bible chronology is approx our time). This was a doctrine known to the early church based on the pattern of God’s seven day week, and revived by Herbert W Armstrong. RW, of course, also adheres to this doctrine.

    There are various pointers in Scripture to the end of the age being our time and not an earlier time. Apart from the 6000 years doctrine, two major ones are King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the statue (Daniel Ch 2); also the dispersed Jews returning to the land of Israel.

    Our time is also unique in that it is only recently that mankind has acquired weapons sufficient to destroy the planet many times over.

    I believe everything is pointing to our time.

    Incidentally, whilst I would not want to trivialize an earthquake, the majority of your sample list of earthquakes appear to be either minimal in terms of casualties or unknown.

  • Mal,

    Thank you for your response. Let’s address some of your comments.

    Incidentally, whilst I would not want to trivialize an earthquake, the majority of your sample list of earthquakes appear to be either minimal in terms of casualties or unknown.

    I’ll take this one first, since it’s easiest. Richter scale is logarithmic. That means every +1 in scale is 10 times the intensity. The quake of 03 Feb 1931 was 7.9 magnitude, which is 1.6 magnitude greater than the most current quake. That is almost 40 times the intensity of the current quake, and it killed 340% more people. Since most of the other 1920s to 1930s quakes were also greater in magnitude than the 2010 quakes, I stand by my earlier assertion.

    Previously, you had said:

    To my mind, 2011 has begun in quite an extraordinary way. Events in the middle east show how rapidly a situation can develop. Weather is highly destructive and chaotic. Food supplies dwindling. Mass animal deaths. Economy improving? Based on what? Seems to me we are shaping up for an even bigger crash. The likelihood of world confrontation growing, with the added danger of nuclear weapons.

    My previous post addressed this. There is nothing extraordinary about our current year. Or Decade. Or few decades. If you want to talk about extraordinary, look at Europe in the 14th century. Approximately 1/2 of the population dead to disease, complete collapse of the economy and ruling classes, crop failures that led to the starvation of thousands, and long-lasting general chaos. Asia and the Middle East were also hit by similar cataclysmic events. Yes, this happened before your supposed end of the 6000th year, but when you compare today’s world against such recorded historic events, there is nothing extraordinary about today.

    As for Christ returning at any other time in history, that would always have been false as far as I¿m concerned, because I believe in the tribulation and the start of the 1000 year reign of Christ occurring after 6000 years (which according to Bible chronology is approx our time). This was a doctrine known to the early church based on the pattern of God¿s seven day week, and revived by Herbert W Armstrong. RW, of course, also adheres to this doctrine.

    This thought was hardly “revived” by Armstrong. You are correct that some of the early Christians held this belief. Interesting that Peter and Paul were not teachers of this belief though. For that matter, none of the New Testament writers really expressed this doctrine.

    Regardless, those who studied St. Jerome’s writings believe he was a millennialist. Such beliefs were known to many, and even expressed in current literature such as Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” as well as Harry Camping’s teachings. Harry Camping will have his day in court very soon now (21-May-2011), and will be proven wrong just like the rest of such prognosticators. But I digress. Armstrong may have used the teaching, but he was certainly not the revival of that teaching.

    Mal, if there is nothing extraordinary occurring, that has not occurred before (World War II, black plague, etc), does it not stand to reason that we are also not at the precipice of the end times? Yes, you have been told all too often that the wisdom of man is the foolishness of God. But those same scriptures also tell us “come, let us reason together”. So, reason. These times are not extraordinary. Much, much worse things have happened before. Weinland has already failed on so many accounts that Mike has documented, that his false prophecies cannot be denied. If anyone is to believe that we are entering into a time of unprecedented history, then unprecedented events should happen – and yet, they don’t. These are the best of times, these are the worst of times. In other words, business as usual.

    If you wish to persist in your millennialist beliefs, fine. I find the debate interesting, but whatever works for you; I don’t really care. But those beliefs are most certainly not consistent with a self-proclaimed prophet whose proclamations have failed multiple times. In the Hebrew scriptures, only one failure at prophecy earned him the title of “false”. His own words earned him the further title of “liar” and “insane”.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal, my apologies, I have corrected my post.

    I won’t ask what your current expectations are. My expectations are that you will remain on the fence for quite awhile longer, as there will continue to be disasters to keep you hooked. Eventually, though, you won’t be able to deny that Ron is a false prophet. Probably will move on to another false prophet, there are others waiting in the wings with their own special theories and calculations.

  • Whisper says:

    I rather thought Ron was in “the wings” as his notoriety is zilch, his following is ultra “head of a pin” small, and he is such a poor speaker that his one and only way of bringing in more sheep is his speaking ability which turns the vast majority away upon contact.
    We’re not actually thinking Ron’s ministry is center stage are we? It’s not even stage far left, it’s in the wings behind the curtains awaiting it’s chance…

  • Atrocious says:

    Ron’s church is just a very small cult, but the people that are affected are still people of value and are being destroyed by this lunatics tyranny. I am so sad for them.

  • Mal says:

    Ron (a diff Ron)

    My turn to address your comments.

    Your posts are clearly written from the standpoint of someone who does not see or believe God has given us anything about His salvation timetable in Scripture. That’s where we differ.

    Of course there have been major catastrophic events through history. God has allowed Satan to be active to serve His purposes for the past 6000 years, often to draw people to Him. That will also be His purpose in allowing the end time events which are prophesied, and which will surely come to pass.

    Yes, there have been earthquakes, famines, wars in the past. The horrors of the last two world wars are prime examples. Jesus Himself said “there will be wars and rumors of wars but the end is not yet”. So such events were to be expected.

    But with respect, that’s not the point. The point is that we are where we are now, approx at the 6000 years point in Biblical chronological history. It is now I believe we need to be particularly watchful for events coming together. It is not only “the 6000 year plan”, there are other indications in Scripture pointing to our time. Many of the world’s top evangelists and Christian broadcasters, who have nothing to do with ‘Armstrongism’, also believe Christ will shortly return.

    Personally, I don’t believe God in Genesis gave us an arbitrary 7 day week, and with Day 7 being the Sabbath just so we could take a rest. I believe all things in Scripture have meaning and are important. It’s not worth arguing my wording regarding whether Herbert W Armstrong ‘revived ‘ the doctrine of the 7 day week equating to God’s 7000 year salvation plan. Suffice it to say he promoted that doctrine and it was a doctrine known to the early church.

    Your point that the Apostle Peter never spoke of that doctrine, well let’s remind ourselves that he certainly made the following statement in 2Peter3:8:

    “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day”.

    He was referring back to Psalm 90:4, which he clearly thought was rather important to remember.

    Regarding your earthquake list once again. Yes, I understand how the Richter scale works.
    The thing that really stands out for me in your list is that God was so merciful in minimising the number of casualties.

  • randy terlecki says:

    i don’t get this can someone help me, 2 years ago in april he (ron) had his flock fast so god would slow down the thunders and take it easy on the great people of this earth and then turn around last week and tell them to pray they start happening now. i don’t get it, tell me if i’m wrong. like i said i’m not very smart, i need help on this one.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Actually, the fast was 2 years ago at the end of January and was for 2 days. And what they were to pray for was that the thunders would cause death and destruction so that more people would be humbled and could be saved. Later on when the thunders didn’t materialize, he recharacterized the fast as a prayer for mercy without mentioning the death and destruction part.

    Did your family member fast for both days?

  • Horseman says:

    You just don’t “get it.” The first thunders in Manasseh were spiritual thunders. It is the physical thunders that are beginning in Ephraim. Also did you notice Russia’s military buildup? You might recal Ron’s post about the Georgia conflict. Nation’s will choose sides, and thus begins the destruction. It’s coming people. Who’s side are you on?

  • randy terlecki says:

    ron always said its not russia, u worry about its germany and the uk ?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I think Horseman’s tongue was firmly in his cheek. Well actually it’s hard to tell.

    Randy is correct, Germany is the main part of the beast power that brings down the US. Russia is not involved until the 6th trumpet.

    In the case of Ron’s pronouncements, everything is eventually spiritual. Such as my speedy death from the inside 😉

  • Mal,

    I appreciate your feedback. Since this blog is about Weinland’s failed prophetic career, I will refrain from debating the 7 days = 7,000 years philosophy. In deference to Mike, who after all owns this blog, I will merely state that I believe that the 2 Peter 3:8 quote you provide, when viewed in context, does not support the theory. Unless Mike explicitly indicates that I have his permission to do otherwise, I will not expound further.

    However, your previous statement of:

    To my mind, 2011 has begun in quite an extraordinary way.

    and when it is pointed out that today’s world condition is, in fact, quite ordinary, you now say:

    But with respect, that’s not the point.

    So, what is the point then of looking out for these “signs”? I believe the quote “Seek and you shall find” is quite appropriate here. Because if you look for something, sure enough, you are going to find it – or something vaguely similar to what you were originally looking for. Human psychology being what it is, will have you convinced that this vague similarity is, in fact, what you sought out to begin with. Frankly, that is what I see you doing now. Grabbing at straws because if you don’t find something, you may have to rethink the basis of your faith to begin with. I can say, with heartfelt sincerity, that is a painful process. But once on the other side of that process, the truth does indeed set you free.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Thank you, “different” Ron, I appreciate your consideration. While I don’t generally allow theological debates to go on on my blog, I’ll allow a discussion of the 6000-year plan ON THIS THREAD ONLY since it seems to be an integral part of what’s holding Mal on the fence, or at least gave him a leg up onto it.

    Personally I doubt that anyone’s mind will be changed, the bible is a versatile book that can be made to support just about any position. But have fun, and continue to be respectful of one another.

  • Horseman says:

    Damn! I guess you do get it! What was the deal Ron posted months back about the Georgia/Russia flare up? He stated sides will be chosen, which will be the start of WWIII? Also, has anyone ever done a comparison between Ron’s “prophecies’ and the prophecies of the Web Bot? A lot seem ironically similar.

    Long time follower – first time poster.

  • Thank you Mike for your graciousness. Yes, I agree that the very nature of the discussion does not generally lead to changed minds. However, I have discovered that such changes are cumulative: That is, it is a progressive series of small changes that then results in large ones. Hopefully, both Mal and I, as well as any other interested readers, may make one of those incremental changes with this discussion.

    I will try to limit my discussion to defending my position that the writer of Peter’s epistles does not espouse the 1 day = 1,000 years interpretation of the Genesis creation, and the world’s (or at least mankind’s) total time of existence.

    Mal said:

    Your point that the Apostle Peter never spoke of that doctrine, well let’s remind ourselves that he certainly made the following statement in 2Peter3:8:

    “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day”.

    He was referring back to Psalm 90:4, which he clearly thought was rather important to remember.

    First, nowhere in the Bible are there any verses that state the doctrine of the 6,000 year earth, and 1,000 years of sabbath. It is all divined by inference. The most used quote to support this inference is the quote from 2 Peter 3 that Mal gives above.

    Looking at the whole chapter, we read in the first verse:

    “Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you.”

    Ahh, that means this is a continuation from a previous letter. What is that letter? 1 Peter, of course. So let’s first look at 1 Peter, specifically, 1 Peter 4, verse 7:

    “The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray.”

    Peter is being quite clear that he believes the end is near. Not 2 thousand years away, but coming soon. In context of the entire chapter, it still reads the same way.

    With that in mind, we return to 2 Peter 3. Reading the full context of the quote provided by Mal, we have in verses 3 through 9:

    “Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

    “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

    With Peter’s statement that the “end of all things is near” in mind, and reading 2 Peter 3, it is apparent that Peter is not teaching a doctrine of equating creation days with 1000s of years of mankind’s existence, but is showing that God is all powerful, and God will see it through. The statement that “a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” is meant to say that God is timeless. This is further strengthened by the next verse “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness”. In other words, man may be impatient, but to God, time is meaningless.

    As Mal pointed out, a similar, although not identical, verse exists in Psalm 90:

    “A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.”

    Reading the verse in context with the remainder of Psalm 90, we get:

    “Lord, you have been our dwelling place throughout all generations. Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. You turn people back to dust, saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.” A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning: In the morning it springs up new, but by evening it is dry and withered.”

    In that context, there is nothing giving a hint that one should extract that one verse, and create a doctrine of creation days equal 1,000 years. Instead, the Psalm plainly talks about the mortality of man, and the eternity of God. Nothing more.

    I did not mean this to be this long. However, I think it is plain that one has to go through some convoluted thinking to maintain that Peter’s or the Psalmist’s quote was intended to build a whole doctrine of how long mankind will last, and when (or if) Jesus will return.

  • Mal says:

    Yes, thanks from me too, Mike. I certainly consider the 6000 year plan of God to be a related topic, even though I agree it is a little beyond the bounds of RW’s specific prophecies.

    Ron (a diff R), I may well be on a loser here. Not in terms of my belief in Christ’s millennial reign beginning at 6000years, but in trying to get across why I believe it.

    You see, it involves that expression which is sometimes scoffed at on this blog, ‘spiritual understanding’.

    You may have heard of the following, or you may not, but here goes.

    The sages of old identified four different ways of understanding the Holy Scriptures, as follows:-

    P’shat – a literal surface meaning which anyone can receive.
    Remez – A Scripture tied to another Scripture.
    D’rash – Derived interpretations of Scripture through exegisis.
    Sod – Deeper spiritual meaning.

    This gives the acronym ‘PARDES’, which also happens to mean ‘orchard’, the fruitful understanding of God’s Word. You should be able to find and verify the PARDES approach to understanding Scripture on the web.

    In such a way of spiritual understanding, Old Testament Scriptures are often identified with the story of Jesus by the New Testament writers, when on the face of it the Old Testament Scriptures are speaking of something quite unrelated to Jesus. The following are examples:

    Isaiah 7:14 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel.” (Quoted in Matt 1:23).

    Hosea 11:1 “Out of Egypt I called My son.” (Quoted in Matt 2:15).

    Psalm 41: 9 “He who eats my bread has lifted up his heel against me.” (Quoted in John 13:18).

    Jeremiah 31:15 “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; She refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more.” (Quoted in Matt 2:17,18).

    All of the above Scripture examples are apparently unrelated to Jesus in the Old Testament, but are quoted by the New Testament writers because there is a deeper spiritual understanding than their original Old Testament context. The New Testament writers were using PARDES.

    It is this method of deeper understanding of the Scriptures related to the 7 day creation story and the Sabbath; linked together with 2Peter3:8 and Psalm 90:4 which led Barnabas, one of the early church fathers, to write down the following understanding of God’s 6000 year timetable:

    Quote from Epistle of Barnabas, Chap.15, The Apostolic Fathers, pp.151-152:

    “of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And God made the works of his hands in six days and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.`Give heed, children, what this meaneth,`He ended in six days.`He meaneth this, that IN SIX THOUSAND YEARS THE LORD SHALL BRING ALL THINGS TO AN END, FOR THE DAY WITH HIM SIGNIFIETH A THOUSAND YEARS; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying, behold, the day of the Lord shall be AS A THOUSAND YEARS.
    `
    Therefore,children, in six days, that is IN SIX THOUSAND YEARS, EVERYTHING SHALL COME TO AN END. And He rested on the seventh day. This he meaneth; WHEN HIS SON SHALL COME, AND SHALL ABOLISH THE TIME OF THE LAWLESS ONE, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day”.

    Just also to say, that there are several additional ‘types and shadows’ of the 6000 year timetable in Scripture, which would be too much to explain here. God’s Word is indeed a treasure trove.

  • whatmeworry says:

    Inevitably, it always comes down to “the end times”. I was force fed the “Tribulation” from the early 60’s, with the German’s marching down Broadway in Manhattan, raping women and cutting off the heads of babies. The concentration camps would be next and let’s not forget the ovens! My Mother would use the image of her standing on the deck of a ship, on her way to Petra, waving frantically goodbye, while I stood on the pier, never making the departure because she couldn’t find me because I had cut school for the 62nd time. We were taught to decipher the news for the secret meanings of the eminent fall of the US, wars, sickness, wild animals invading the cities due to mass starvation in the wild. Crap, when they found coyotes in Central Park, many took THAT to be a sign. It was then, and is now, all a bunch of fear mongering, to keep one close to the fold. Even now, some 10 years after I walked away from the WCG, my ears perk up when the news blares about the worst winter in 87 years, or the horrible earthquake in Christ’s Church, New Zealand. Instant flashbacks take me to all the mind controlling tortuous sermons about whether or not we’d “make it, or be left behind to be martyrs. It would have been a cake walk to get to flee to some place of safety, even to Petra. Living the 60’s through the 00’s in the WCG, and being totally unprepared to go ON living till now in the economic mess that we have worldwide, I say bring it on if it’s coming. Put up or shut up. I got cheated out of being able to realistically dream about the future when I was a kid, don’t have much of a 401K plan or any hope to retire before the age of 75. I have tried make the very best of my situation and have made amends to my family for imposing that crock of malarky on them. Go sit on your roof and wait for the “end” if you want, I’m gonna go to Disney World.

  • Kirrily Xpkg says:

    Mal, your entire post is totally offensive and self righteous.

    Oh yes, it’s aaaaalllll spiritual. You see, I don’t – according to you.

    Problem with that, is that EVERYONE believes they have spiritual understanding – Catholics, Buddists, Seventh Day Adventists, Jews, Pentecostals etc etc.

    So WHO is right? WHO has ‘The Truth’…..

    So you believe you have been given, by God, spiritual understanding. So does the Pope!! Who is right?

    Time will tell, and that time has already proven Ron a lying, insane, false prophet.

    So you are special, with Gods given ‘Spiritual’ knowledge. We are just poor blind folk who can’t see because God has chosen not to reveal it to us. Good for you.

    I’ve always enjoyed your posts, but your latest one has just riles me up.

    The ‘Truth’, according to Ron, was meant to be proved by PHYSICAL fullfillment of his prophecies. Why the F:&@ does it always come back to special spiritual understanding!!

    You are no different to any other member of ANY other church or belief system.

    Who is the author of confusion again?

    Where’s the PROOF? Oh, that’s right – there is none. You just have to believe!!

  • Greetings again Mal.

    I was pretty sure that it would come to this:

    You see, it involves that expression which is sometimes scoffed at on this blog, ‘spiritual understanding’.

    Yes, I am aware of Barnabas’ supposed letter. If you bring the Apocrypha into the discussion, then you open a whole new ball game. The Nag Hammadi library would be the most fun to bring in. But, this no longer serves a purpose.

    You see Mal, the hallmark of all cults is “secret knowledge” ™. Frankly, the gnostics would really like that, but I digress. All cults have someone or some way of having knowledge the unwashed masses just don’t understand. Hell, Charles Manson got people to commit horrendous murders based on “secret knowledge” ™ gleaned from the Beatle’s White Album.

    Once you tell me that the words we discuss mean something else than what they actually say, you have slipped into that cultic state. I sincerely wish you the best, because I fear you will need it.

    For my money, I don’t trust anyone’s god who cannot clearly communicate himself/herself. If that god is so inept that the message must be received through special translators or through “secret knowledge” ™, then I for one call that god a powerless fool and want no part in it.

    “Spiritual understanding” is nothing more than “secret knowledge”.

    On an interesting tangential note, I was going through my library to refresh my memory about millennial beliefs, and I came across and old title Christ Returns by 1988, 101 Reasons Why, written by Colin Deal. In the dedication section, he lists a host of peoples’ names who have helped him with this fine piece of literature. One of those names caught my eye: “Wayne Matthews”.

    Hummph, sez I. Is this the same Ronnie follower named Wayne Matthews? Well, his wife is listed in the dedication section too as “Christine Matthews”. Because of Mike’s thorough documentation, I discovered that is indeed the same name as Ronnie’s Waynes-world wife. So, I guess Wayne has been in the failed prophet business for quite some time. 1988 didn’t pan out too well. I wonder if also played part in Colin’s next book, he Day and the Hour Jesus Will Return, which predicted Christ’s return in 1992. I’m pretty sure that one missed the mark too.

    So, maybe Ronnie’s prediction makes Wayne a 3 time loser?

  • Mal says:

    Kirrily, I’m genuinely sorry if my post caused offence. I assure you it was not meant to, or intended to sound self-righteous. Heaven forbid, I don’t consider myself special to God any more than any other person.

    I was trying to answer the point about the use of 2Peter3:8, and hoped to get across that Scripture is not always ‘black and white’ with a few examples. Maybe some out there understood my meaning.

    I do have that strong belief that we are in end times, and expect that I will remain watchful for my remaining days.

    I’m aware of your roller coaster ride at PKG and the hurt it caused. I can also understand why ‘end times’ is a sore point with former COG members.

  • Kirrily Xpkg says:

    Mal, I did get riled up at your post, but I guess it’s not YOU that I’m riled up at, as so much as this ‘spiritual knowledge’ concept. Even though your post did anger me, I have always found you to be fair, sincere and level headed. I know you are not a full Weinland supporter, but of all the people who have posted on this blog that have either partially, or fully supported Ron, you have been the ONLY one who has remained calm and polite.

  • Mark says:

    Spiritual Knowledge = Secret Knowledge.

    It’s just a code word; means the same thing. It’s very ego inflating to believe that you have some special/secret knowledge that nobody else has. Ron crunching numbers with his magical calculator and when it doesn’t work out the first time, he thinks that his formula must be wrong, so he goes at it again to try to decipher the “Code”. At the heart of this nonsense is that you have to believe that God is telling Ron the secret which cracks the code of the Bible, which unlocks the events and time line of the end of days.
    Ron was wrong the first time and every time after because there is no code, other than the Bible points to Jesus.

    One thing is for sure, this conspiracy theory/code cracking isn’t genuine Christianity. It leads the faithful away from the true source of knowledge and you begin to put your faith in a mere mortal trying to pretend that he has been given special privileges by God. You do not need to fear what Ron says.

  • Mal says:

    Hi Kirrily

    I have seen polite comments here, as well as some not so polite, from those interested in RW.

    Also, I’m sure some would not agree with your assessment of my commenting……but thanks anyway.

  • Matt says:

    Matthew 24:36

    Of course, Ron Weinland has no problem with the saying that he knows more than Jesus.

    Mal, the kind of connect-the-dots theology you advocate can be used to get to almost any conclusion – which is probably why it is so popular, as it can be made to fit almost any agenda. What amazes me is that people spend so much time on it in stead of ACTUALLY studying the bible – considering the language it was written in, they culture and agenda of the writers – you know, REAL exegesis. Of course that is not very popular, because it leads to some pretty challenging conclusions – polytheism in the old testament and the henotheistic nature of early abarahamic religion, the question of child sacrifice occurring surprisingly late among the Israelites, the fact that Paul directly opposed the Jerusalem group which happened to include most of the apostles and almost certainly Jesus’s brother – all things that incidentally enjoy consensus among serious, peer-reviewed bible scholars.

    In stead you get hacks who cannot read Greek or Aramaic spending ages getting the bible to back their presuppositions, reading sub-standard translations and never, EVER referring to the actual early sources and manuscripts.

    When this prediction fails – and they all have, right from the time of Paul onwards – you will simply move on to a different set of connected dots in stead of admitting that your method is just plain wrong. You cannot apply a magic decoder ring to the bible and hope to come out with a blueprint of future history.

  • me says:

    And what actual sources and manuscripts are you referring to?

  • Matt says:

    Early manuscript portions of the bible books. We even have a few that date back to before 600 AD. And non-biblical sources that mention parts of them. This is for the new testament, ofcourse.

  • Ryan says:

    I would like to say regarding Mal talking about extraordinary times, this would be different than saying unprecedented times, which means they never happened before. Extraordinary times would just means that they are out of the ordinary, even though it might have happened before in the past. You can’t tell me that times like World Wars II wouldn’t be extraordinary if the same war happened again today. Or like what happened with Chernobyl, you’re say that if another nuclear accident happens again that it can no longer be extraordinary just because it happened before at some point in history ? What would be extraordinary is something that is out of the norm to happen, even if once per century, it would extraordinary each time it happened. A time when nearly every part of the Middle-East is uprising in turmoil, this IS extraordinary, even if this doesn’t surpass World War II, it’s still extraordinary because it’s not something that normally happens every day or every week or every month or every year.

  • Jack says:

    Ryan, I’ll tell you what would be extaordinary; if Ron could prophecy just one thing that would come to pass. That would be extraordinary. Maybe you haven’t been following Ron for a while, but he has prophesied many things and nothing has come to pass. He just changes the date or says he never said it. How about the president not taking office because the u.s. would not even exist come election time?

  • Ryan says:

    When talking about divine inference, I agree, this is by divine inference, but God Himself makes it clear that He reveals things to His people through His prophets, it talks about revealing His secrets to His servants the prophets. People cannot understand God’s mysteries unless they are revealed, and if this very basic Biblical fact is not believed by somebody, then this somebody doesn’t believe in the God of the Bible, which just means that it’s an unfair arguement is we’re not at least believing in what the Bible says. God says that this World is blinded to what is of the truth, and that Satan helps this deception along. So it’s not just Mal feeling that the World is blinded to the truth, this is what the Bible makes clear all over the place.

    By the way, it’s intriguing with Peter saying that the end of all things is near, because according to Mike’s standards, this would make Peter giving prophecy, and since you believe that this prophecy failed, then this would make Peter a false prophet and a false apostle, would this be a fair statement ? This would mean that there is another basic rift in believing God and Jesus Christ that Peter was an apostle of God. This is yet another example of God’s servant saying that something would happen and didn’t, although I don’t even necessarily agree that this didn’t happen though. If the total length is 6,000 Years, then 2/3rds of the way through thid 6,000 years after 4,000 years with only 2,000 years left, then you could consider this as being near (relative to the amount of time that had already passed and what is remaining), so I don’t believe that Peter was wrong, although he could very well have been wrong and maybe he did really believe that he was coming in his life-time, and if this is the case of most of you believe, then would he have been not of God even though God and Jesus Christ said that he was ? Also, saying that God is timeless, which He is though, would imply that every kind of prophecy dealing with timing in the Bible wouldn’t be a prophecy that could be understood, or that it has to be what it’s literally saying if it says a day or a year. This would change so much of what the Bible says. When it says “as some understand slowness”, I see this as meaning that we don’t see slowness in the same manner that God sees slowness, and so hence why Peter was probably inspired to say that the end was near, because for God the end is near since we were already 2/3rds into the 6,000 Years.

    “Instead, the Psalm plainly talks about the mortality of man, and the eternity of God. Nothing more.” So are you saying that you agree that mankind does not have an immortal soul as most Christians believe ? Because if we did have an immmortal soul, then we would already have eternal life irrespective of God.

    “However, I think it is plain that one has to go through some convoluted thinking to maintain that Peter’s or the Psalmist’s quote was intended to build a whole doctrine of how long mankind will last, and when (or if) Jesus will return.” Well, I don’t necessarily believe that God’s servants understood that this would turn into something that would be further revealed in the future as dcotrine. Aside from the apostles, how about the prophets giving prophecy and giving their personal view that they believe it will happen within their own life-times ? Would this make them false prophets ? Of course not.

  • Ryan says:

    Jack, I address things like the President not taking office, which had to do with everything regarding timing being wrong because all of God’s Church had been wrong regarding Christ returning on Trumpets, but read my comment posting from Mike’s posting the one before this particular one.

  • Ryan says:

    I know what you guys mean about the fear-mongering, although many really truly believe in the heart that God was working with them so it wasn’t just about fear-mongering. But if was look at this as a prophet fear-mongering, then wouldn’t all of God’s true prophets have been considered to be fear-mongering ? The book of Revelation is fear-mongering in and of itself, at least by what you guys are saying. If the Bible is true, then wouldn’t God’s true prophets whenever they come on the scene seem like they are fear-mongering when they really aren’t ? If we automatically believe that speaking of apocalyptic events is fear-mongering, than we are already doomed to rejecting God’s true prophets then.

    “So you are special, with Gods given ‘Spiritual’ knowledge. We are just poor blind folk who can’t see because God has chosen not to reveal it to us. Good for you.”

    “Why the F:&@ does it always come back to special spiritual understanding!! You are no different to any other member of ANY other church or belief system”

    Well, it comes back to spiritual understanding, because this is what God talks about all over the place, gaining spiritual understanding of things, which cannot be obtained through studying God’s Word alone. When God says that spiritual matters cannot be understood by that which is not physical, how else would this spiritual understanding come ? Not through the mere studying that Bible scholars do, otherwise they would all have the truth. God says He reveals to His servants, and then they obviously reveal this to God’s Church, or to God’s people in the cases in the Old Testament. So how can we think that spiritual understanding is not important ? I know that Weindland wrote that things would happen exactly as he stated, but he was speaking based upon the Church’s long-held belief of Christ returning on Trumpets, and since God chose to correct this long-held belief until later when it was in His perfect timing to give correction, everything that he wrote in the book had to shift in timing, and God would be to blame if there was anybody to blame, but one would be very foolish to blame God because he has no fault in the timing of His revelation. Why would God judge Weinland based upon truth that was thought to be understood in the Church but went uncorrected. God had purpose in waiting for this correction as explained in the 4 reasons on the web-site. Even if those reasons don’t necessarily prove anything, couldn’t those reasons very well be why God would choose timing that would be perfect in His eyes but maybe not perfect in the eyes of the World that rejects God and His people anyhow ?

    “You see Mal, the hallmark of all cults is ‘secret knowledge’. Frankly, the gnostics would really like that, but I digress. All cults have someone or some way of having knowledge the unwashed masses just don’t understand. Hell, Charles Manson got people to commit horrendous murders based on “secret knowledge” ™ gleaned from the Beatle’s White Album.” Well, Jesus Christ as well as God’s servants in the Bible stated so very often that the World can’t have understanding without first being called by God from out of this World, and God does need to reveal before one can have understanding, and to think otherwise is to believe that one can learn spiritual truth on his very own without God’s help, which means that they are denying God, Jesus Christ, and everything.

    “Once you tell me that the words we discuss mean something else than what they actually say, you have slipped into that cultic state. I sincerely wish you the best, because I fear you will need it.” How about very VERY simplistic things like when Jesus Christ very explicitly states that nobody has gone to Heaven except for the Son of Man, or when Peter says that not even David, a prophet of God and a man goinf after God’s own heart, hasn’t gone to Heaven either ? Doesn’t this very clearly show us that we don’t go to Heaven when we die ? Even if Weinland is 100% a false prophet, would this take away any form of credibility regarding things that Jesus Christ said ? When ministers are asked about those things, they’ll just say that it’s a mystery and nobody is supposed to understand it. Would anybody on here whom is Christian be willing to say that Jesus Christ was lying about no man going to Heaven, all so that they wouldn’t be able to say that Weinland had even one single thing correct regarding doctrine ?

    “I don’t trust anyone’s god who cannot clearly communicate himself/herself.” If you mean a God that talks in symbols, or one that speaks in parables, a God that tells everything plainly enough whereby nobody would need God’s help in understanding it, then you have have already denied God because this is how God speaks all over the Bible, and Jesus Christ often spoke in parables and often let them know this also. Does this make them false and ones that you couldn’t trust then ?

  • Ryan says:

    Regarding whomever spoke about Wayne Matthews, who’s to say that Wayne Matthews wasn’t believing falsely in that portion of his life before God called him from out of this World ?

    “Mal, the kind of connect-the-dots theology you advocate can be used to get to almost any conclusion – which is probablywhy it is so popular, as it can be made to fit almost any agenda. What amazes me is that people spend so much time on it in stead of ACTUALLY studying the bible”

    You cannot just study the Bible and expect to understand it, God even says that this World is blinded to the truth, blinded to the Word of God because they don’t have God’s Holy Spirit working with them. You’re absolutely right that anybody can twist things into making it fit whatever agenda they have, but how about when the real truth comes along ? It just gives the truth a bad name because then when somebody true comes around, people are already apprehensive to believe anything anymore, you know ? The studying of the Bible is important to be familiar with God’s Word and to be reminded of what is said, but nothing can be fully understand without God’s help, guidance, and blessing to be able to do so.

    “the fact that Paul directly opposed the Jerusalem group which happened to include most of the apostles and almost certainly Jesus’s brother” I was wondering what is meant by opposing the Jersualem group, do you mean the Pharisees, or what do you mean ?