Creation of Elohim

During his 6th sermon of the 3rd organized feast of tabernacles after the last one, False Prophet Ronald Weinland stated 2 new “truths”.  One of these had been revealed in the prior sermon, just not stated that way.

“Truth” #3: God created both good and evil.

The 4th “truth” for the feast was stated as:

Almighty God will dwell in his family, in each and every member of his family.  And they will dwell in him.  This will be accomplished through the power of the holy spirit that emanates from God and in the lives of all who are in God’s family.  And this will be a perpetual and continuing process into everlasting life.  Once begotten of God’s holy spirit, the flow of that spirit can be surpressed and completely removed or cut off from a begotten person’s life.  God dwells/lives/abides in the life of a spirit-begotten person and they therefore dwell in him.

This came in the first part of the sermon, and Ron blathered on for awhile on the topic.  This all is rather vague.  I suspect that this lays the foundation for Ron to spiritualize the return of the Jesus Christ over the next 20 months. Or at least gives him more to blather about in sermons. While Ron thinks that no more “truths” are coming, but I think he’ll come up with some more to distract his followers from the intensity of the Great Tribulation.

Ron is having a Red Sea day, as he has not yet completed his Last Great Day sermon.  According to him, that was the situation in 2005 when he pulled his Melchizedek sermon out at the last moment.  Not much longer to see how it will turn out this time.  Probably in for more blather.

33 Comments

  • Whisper says:

    “Once begotten of God’s holy spirit, the flow of that spirit can be surpressed and completely removed or cut off from a begotten person’s life.”

    This is to give Ronald the ability to accuse or kick out any who are “IN” but are not obeying Ronald’s rules well enough, or causing scandles etc… So if your “IN” the family, this is an ongoing test and not a “Life Long” certificate. No ones gonna get the certificate and be beyond reproach, well except Ronny & the little lady, while Ron is in charge. Don’t relax, don’t feel safe, don’t think that you have finally got it until the fat lady sings. Keep on your toes and be ready to jump when commanded.

    Go Figure?

  • Atrocious says:

    Anything to create fear. Fear, FEAR, FEAR! That’s how ron-god works. If you’re not afraid, then you’re not god’s (ron’s). There is no way that ron-god can claim to use the bible as his guide. He is so far away from it, it’s not even recognizable.

  • Mal says:

    I don’t agree Atrocious. Having listened to numerous sermons by Ron, I don’t feel fear. To my mind Ron teaches a very fair and just God.

    By comparison, the ‘traditional’ Christian churches I’ve been involved with teach that if our friends and loved ones don’t ‘accept Jesus’ before the end of this life they will end up in eternal torment. I find that far more fearful.

    I also don’t agree that he is so far away from the Bible as to be unrecognizable. I have to agree with Kirrily that nothing has made more sense of the Bible to me than what Ron Weinland/Armstrongism teaches. The Feast of Tabernacles sermons are no exception. I see a cohesiveness and clarity, backed up by Scriptures, that I don’t see in ‘traditional’ Christianity. The sermons by Johnny Harrell and Wayne Matthews this week are equally clear.

    When Ron expounds on Scripture I check it out. In one sermon this week he claimed that John 1 Verse 1 is a bad translation, which is commonly used to ‘prove’ that Jesus has eternally existed. The idea being that, in that Scripture, Jesus is ‘the Word’ who was alongside God.

    However, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God……..” should be correctly translated from the Greek as “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was UNTO God…….” I find Ron’s reasoning and explanation makes sense, which has been the case in other Scriptures he has expounded on.

    Flavor Aid ? Well, I’m certainly convinced that Ron knows his Bible.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal, I’ll agree with you on the bit about fear. In that traditional christianity also sells fear with their version of hell and eternal torment. I prefer a quick death in the lake of fire to living an eternity in the hell of living under Ron’s god. But Ron sells the fear of missing out on the millennium and suffering a horrible death during the Great Tribulation.

    The Bible is a very versatile book and can be taken to mean whatever you want. Whether “with” or “unto”, whatever. Either one makes equal sense to me, meaning no sense. Whatever.

    Ron’s “truths” about the spirit world are totally besides the point as to whether Weinland is a false prophet. “Flavor Aid” refers to those who still consider Weinland a true prophet despite consistent failures over several years, those who buy into his flimsy excuses and hold on to them despite the fact that we’re more than a time and half a time into the Great Tribulation. Oh, that was the 360-day version of “time”. OK, he switched to a 280-day version of “time”. We’re nearly a time and half-a-time into the restarted great tribulation. Still no evidence of the first trumpet, the evidence the events he said in his book would happen exactly.

    No evidence of Witness powers. No water turned to blood. No droughts brought on by a pronouncement from him.

    And no dead mockers resulting from his death curses. And no premature end to the IRS criminal investigation seeking to harm his freedom of movement.

  • angel says:

    Within “traditional Christianity” not every church presents the doctrine of hell exactly the same way; the ones that emphasize works as being essential to salvation are typically the ones that use fear to motivate people to live holy lives, but the ones that emphasize grace don’t really need to do that. I don’t feel fear at all because of grace, but before becoming a Christian I WAS fearful; the Bible clearly presents it as a fearful place.

    The way I think of it is, I don’t need to be afraid of prison unless I am doing something that could send me there, and that goes for hell as well.

    I realize people don’t like the idea of hell – who would? But not liking it doesn’t change anything if it is a reality. Some people have a hard time reconciling the idea of a “loving” God and hell; I personally don’t think that’s a contradictory idea, but that’s me. I think the Bible gives ample warning about hell and God gives the opportunity to avoid it to everyone who calls on Him, so I have no problem reconciling a loving God with a just and holy God.

    As a self-proclaimed prophet and teacher, Ron has alot to answer for if his teaching is wrong and causes people to end up in a different place than they hoped for; but if they are putting their trust in him rather than God’s word when Ron has lied to them again and again – well, wouldn’t wanna be in their shoes.

  • RJ says:

    Hey Mal, most words have various definitions therfore it is easy to select one that meets your need. Compare the usage and context with similar verses in the Bible. It’s not just John 1:1. Look at John 8:58, 10:30, 20:28, Col. 1: 15-16, 2:9, Titus 2:13, Heb. 1:8 and Isaiah 9:6. There are numerous others if you search, so to hang your hat on one verse as Ron does is pure ignorance or deception.

  • Whisper says:

    Ron Weinland clear on scripture?
    Well it takes all kinds to have a true diversity and with Ron playing far left field in the scriptural ballpark he truely fills out the team.
    But unlike the mainstream Christian pastors and popes etc… Ron actually communes directly with God while those other so called leaders in churches mearly teach the word from differing viewpoints.
    Why Weinland can not get a single trumpet or thunder correct is beyond me when he can gain direct divine revelation on the meaning of scripture is beyond mere me.
    Then again if Rons God is going to lie to Ron on dates and such outlining the greatest divine intervention to happen to the world since it’s very inception then I can understand why God lied to Ron about all the thunders and trumpets and timelines etc…
    But the kicker is that if God is consistantly lieing to Ron and Ron is attempting to tell us the “Truth” then when is one to believe in Weinland when one is bieng lied to at least some of the time to weed out the weaklings?
    What a hard religion Weinland pushes, belive in a God who will purposefuly lie to you through Ron, the Spokesman, to weed you out or build you up. You can’t trust it only believe in it.
    I would say that that is “faith”, but for the fact that you might never know when the lieing will end? If you can’t trust God to tell the truth then at what point can you ever trust him? Why would your distrust of God ever change here on this world of in an afterlife? God would continue to be unstrustworthy. That’s what you get for lieing, when you are an all Powerful Ruler, distrust from your followers that never ends because they can never tell if you are lieing or not.

    Go figure?

  • Karen Mustard says:

    Ron and HWA is clear on scripture?????! Ha Ha Ha….. Keep listening!!… is all I can say… AND WAKE UP!!!

    Have them explain the Book of Colossians…. or Galations…. It is tricky for them for sure… they do a lot of stuttering and “explaining away” certain scritpures there in those books…

    What about the scripture that says…”It is appointed ONCE for man to die…”…. RW and HWA teaches that folks can die…then get resurrected to “try again”… and if they don’t repent and submit… they die again… hmmmmmm

    What about the fact that the bible says in Revelation there will neither be day or night…yet they teach the Sabbath is everlasting because the 10 commandments are everlasting laws……. how can the Sabbath be everlasting if there is NO DAY or NIGHT….

    Whatever…. I’m so glad I’m over it….! I’m not saying I believe everything that comes out of “traditional” Christian preachers mouths, but at least those preachers don’t try to control my every living move….

  • angel says:

    Mal,

    Eternal torment is not just a concept dreamed up by Christians, it’s pretty clearly stated in the Bible. If you want to believe Ron’s idea that the eternal torment spoken of is really just physical death and the annihilation of the soul, that’s certainly up to you, but I can’t reconcile ceasing to exist with eternal torment – those are two diametrically opposite ideas. They both can’t be true.

    You say you agree with Kirrily about how she USED TO feel about the teachings of Ron/Armstrongism; I hope you didn’t miss the fact that she no longer feels that way. Her real light bulb moment came the minute she realized Ron was a false prophet and broke away from Armstrongism.

    What I don’t get is if you are so convinced that Ron, Johnny Harrell and Wayne Matthews are so right – why haven’t you joined Ron’s church? Are you reluctant to start shelling out your hard-earned money? (don’t blame you) Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad you haven’t, but methinks your hesitation in joining them means you know deep down it would be a BAD decision. Go with your gut!

    Ron is not the only one who tries to use John 1:1 to deny the deity of Jesus Christ; other cults do that as well. Why you would trust this teaching, coming from a man who has been wrong about so many things, is beyond me. There are many bible scholars alot more knowledgeable about the Greek language than Ron who disagree.

    Ron knows his Bible? Jim Jones, David Koresh and other false prophets/teachers knew their Bible pretty well, too; the fact that someone has studied the Bible and knows it well does not prove they teach it accurately. The key, IMO, to avoid being deceived is not to be impressed with how much Bible knowledge someone has, but whether their understanding lines up with the clear teachings of scripture. Like other cults, Ron attempts to twist the scriptures to fit his flawed doctrines. Charles Taze Russell did it, he even came up with his own translation to support his doctrines. Joseph Smith did it, too; his spiritual source told him all the “traditional Christian” churches were wrong, so he started his own. He came up with the Book of Mormon, the “most correct book” in existence, he claimed; even more so than the Bible (why then, I wonder, do none of their doctrines come from that book?).

    Alot of people study the Bible, Mal; doesn’t mean they have a special, more correct understanding than anyone else. Ron has claimed to have that – and been wrong, so getting all high and mighty about his teachings vs the teachings of Christianity doesn’t make sense.

  • Steve says:

    Mike Said: “I suspect that this lays the foundation for Ron to spiritualize the return of the Jesus Christ over the next 20 months.”

    Thats exactly what i was thinkin. He is using incrementalism to brainwash them

    Angel said: “I think the Bible gives ample warning about hell and God gives the opportunity to avoid it to everyone who calls on Him, so I have no problem reconciling a loving God with a just and holy God”

    Angel i have to dissagree….unless of course you can explain…because?…because some people do not have the opportunity to know anythin about your Jesus/God etc. Some live in remote areas and i am pretty sure hundreds of millions (perhaps billions over full spans of time) have died never even hearing of christ and the salvation offer etc….i can’t see this as fair and an “ample warning” as you say. It seems very unfair to me to send people to hell just because they can’t figure out the meaning of life in the infinite roads available to travel, all of which seem truthful in some way or other…i could go deeper but i just don’t want to.

  • Mal says:

    angel

    I would ask you the same question as Steve. Since Scripture says that every person will be resurrected, presumably you believe that billions of individuals who have not ‘accepted Jesus’ throughout history will be resurrected simply to be informed that they will have to suffer eternal torment ?

    How do you reconcile that belief with a just and loving God as defined in the Scriptures ? I can’t. I see this as one of the many false doctrines of mainstream Christianity.

    Note that Romans 6:23 does not say “The wages of sin is eternal torment”, as taught by mainstream Christianity.

    Romans 6:23 says “The wages of sin is death”, as taught by Ron Weinland.

  • angel says:

    Steve,

    Those are valid concerns, but I think you’re making some assumptions. First off, the Bible speaks about people being judged according to what they know; before Jesus came and died for our sins people could not have been held accountable for accepting/rejecting Him, in fact, it says He holds people accountable to know there’s a God because of creation itself. God would know where every person He created dwells, whether in the middle of a huge congested city, or the most remote jungle and He says He’s not willing that any should perish. I believe He cares more for people than we do so I have no doubt He is capable of sending someone to the ends of the earth to speak to someone who is seeking God, or even speaking to them Himself.

    I don’t believe God expects us to figure out the meaning of life. I think every person at some point considers the question of why we’re here, and whether there is a God; the question is whether someone is willing to seek Him with complete sincerity; this is what God requires. Every religion has promises of rewards for good behavior/right choices, and warnings of the consequences for bad behavior/wrong choices; the idea of rewards/punishments is not something you find just in Christianity. The Bible says God is the One who initiates contact with us, not the other way around, so if He’s real He will reach out to each person and it will be their choice whether to accept or reject Him. I don’t believe people will end up in hell because they were confused, but because they consciously rejected God.

    If someone warns me of the danger of a certain action, I can choose to believe it or not – but I’ve been warned. Whoever gave the warning is not responsible for the fact that I chose to ignore/disbelieve it, and they can’t force me to heed it.

  • angel says:

    Mal,

    I don’t believe the Bible teaches “soul sleep”; Paul said that for a believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. It is the body that will be resurrected and reunited with the spirit; some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting judgment.

    IMO it would be very unfair to threaten people with eternal torment if He doesn’t intend to do exactly that; it would make Him a liar. But since you choose to listen to Ron you must be okay with the idea that God lies.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I reckon you can argue on many forms of religious beliefs – and all would sound plausible. But arguing on points serves no purpose as people/groups have been doing it for thousands of years – to no avail. For example Angel, the Bible also says that Paul’s writings are confusing, and people used his writings as an excuse for lawlessness. But most Pentecostal’s use the writings of Paul the most. *sigh*. (I used to know what scripture said this, but I have forgotten and I have thrown out all my bibles).

    The book, The Bible, has caused so many problems in the world – wars and murders all in the name of ‘God’.

    Again, I have been involved (very involved) in many different types of religion, and Armstrong to me made the most sense, and to me had the most beautiful plan. And honestly, the Bible did come alive to me for the first time.

    BUT……..

    Using the definition in the Bible, it says no lie can be of the truth. And the ‘fruit’ of Armstrongism is just rotten to the core – clearly.

    Again, the Bible can be used in so many different ways to confirm one’s own beliefs – no matter what those beliefs are. And THAT to me is what is sooooooo wrong.

    How can we accept ‘Christ’ if he does not CLEARLY state who and what he is? OK, so it’s based on our OWN knowledge…… then we are ALL RIGHT!!!

    It doesn’t make any sense – at least to me.

    I think though at the end of the day, Angel has made a very valid point – that we do have to be responsible for our own decisions, and apply what knowledge we BELIEVE to be right. I mean, what else can we do?

    This does nothing though to solve what is THE TRUTH.

    And again, that is what attracted me to RW in the first place. Remember at the time I already believed Armstrongism – so when Ronnie came along saying the things he did, and to me it was the (paraphrase) “People will finally know who to listen to! There is so much confusion out there! God will prove that I am who I say I am, and reveal Himself in a powerful way” that got me in.

    Oh yes, if only God would reveal Himself.

    But clearly, God DOES NOT REVEAL HIMSELF – if He does, He has a VERY weird way of showing it. If he did, his ‘Church’ would be of one accord.

    Everyone believes what they do because they think it is TRUE – but that doesn’t make it so. I was looking forward to finally KNOWING the TRUTH.

    But Ronnie has been PROVEN, yes PROVEN to be FALSE. Nothing can change that.

    His teachings however, the ‘Truths’ – cannot be proven false. Just as Pentecostal, SDA, Judaism, Catholicism, Atheism, Islam and Buddhism CANNOT be proven false either.

    So what is the Truth? *Sigh* WHO CARES!!! I GIVE UP!!

    I’m just going to live my life, do what I want, try to be a good person.

    If God sends me to Hell/Lake of Fire/Smallville – whatever, because HE DID NOT CLEARLY REVEAL HIMSELF SO I COULD MAKE A CHOICE, then He is not the type of God I want to be involved with.

    You know what though, through all this – I believe I now have tolerence for people no matter what their belief. I can now be around all different types of Christians and not get angry at them (the type of bad ‘fruit’ I had in Armstrongism).

    It is alarming to have seen in myself this type of ‘high and mighty’ attitude that is rife in Armstrongism – ‘We are special, we are the called out ones, we have the TRUTH’. You’d think it would be humbling wouldn’t you, but sadly, it has the opposite effect.

    I’m so glad I am out of it all – and I mean ALL (Armstrong, Pentecostal, SDA, JW).

    What about all the athiests out there? What if someone out there who did not believe in God, suddenly DID believe in God. Where would they start? Where would they go to learn about God? Where would they find THE TRUTH? Well, they can’t. It’s impossible.

    They may find a place that fits in with what THEY think is the truth – but it still does not MAKE IT TRUE just because they believe it.

    I still believe that there is a God – but I no longer fool myself into thinking I know what the deal is. Because I don’t, and I don’t believe I ever will – at least in this life.

    I just have to believe that God will understand that I have tried – since I was a little girl, to find the TRUTH….. God, I can take a hint – you don’t want me to find it.

    Whatever.

  • Mal says:

    Hi RJ

    Yes, I’m aware of the Scriptures you quoted. I once took them at face value as backing up the doctrine of the ‘trinity’, which I now believe to be a falsity introduced by the Catholic church. I believe each of your Scripture references to be either a mistranslation or a misunderstanding. Translations of the original Bible texts occurred long after the doctrine of the ‘trinity’ was introduced by the church, so it is easy to see why the translators would bias their translations towards that doctrine.

    Ron Weinland’s ‘Truth 42’, that Jesus has not eternally existed, will be seen by most Christians as total heresy.

    In last week’s sermon, Ron Weinland backed up his translation of John 1:1 using several other Scriptures using the same Greek word. I believe he is right, that John1:1 does not have to mean that Jesus was there with God in the beginning.
    .
    Addressing just one of the Scriptures you referenced, John 8:58, “Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am”. One website states this to be more accurately translated as “Truly, truly I say to you, I exist as superior in rank to Abraham’s existence.”

    Jesus was certainly divine and at one with God in mind and purpose. But eternally existing ? Co-equal with God ? How does that idea fit with these Scriptures ?

    (1Jo 4:12) No one has seen God at any time.

    (1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

    (Joh 5:30) I can of mine own self do nothing.

    (Heb 2:9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels.

  • angel says:

    Kirrily,

    I agree there is no point to arguing over any of this; no one has it all figured out, but to me that’s a relief to know because it takes the pressure off me and allows me to have faith in God, which is exactly the way He wants it. I know it’s frustrating, but you can either have faith that God knows why He’s doing what He’s doing and there’s a good reason for it; or you can give up. We all must make that choice.

    I felt confused and overwhelmed at one time, too, and for awhile just pushed it aside and went forward with my life; but in the back of my mind was the thought that my choosing not to address this issue did not erase my accountability. So I couldn’t keep doing that indefinitely. I reached a point where I knew I had to make up my mind once and for all if I was going to give God the benefit of the doubt, or kick the idea of Him to the curb and live the rest of my life for today. God did reach out to me, and I responded. I know alot of people don’t believe that, but that was my experience and my testimony. So I’ve made my choice.

    There could be a million belief systems out there, including atheism – one of them is true. It has been man’s choice to make up all the beliefs that are false, not God’s. Just as He will allow you to give up on Him, He allows people to believe what they want, and reject Him if that’s what they choose to do. It makes me sad that people have such a negative view of God, because I see Him so differently. God has made it clear He wants people to come to Him by faith; I know that’s hard, but there it is – it’s a WAY. I know people would like to believe there are many ways so they could choose the one that best suits them, but the Bible doesn’t give that option. As confusing as it can be, there are things that a child can understand, such as calling on the name of Jesus for salvation – some will run around in circles trying to argue about it but it’s right there in black and white so we can choose to believe that God meant it when He said that, or keep arguing. Not here to preach so please don’t take it that way; I’m just responding to your comments.

  • angel says:

    Mal,

    I’m not going to argue with you over the deity of Jesus. I emphatically reject Ron’s teaching on the subject – period. What you are doing, unfortunately, is showing people here how Ron manipulates the scriptures to make them say what he wants them to say – which is exactly what turns them off to trusting the Bible.

    I’ll stand with Thomas, who after 8 days was inside a closed room when Jesus appeared among them. When he touched Jesus he said “My Lord and my God!”. Jesus didn’t chastise him for taking the LORD’s name in vain or deny that He was God – Thomas identified Him correctly.

  • Kirrily Xpkg says:

    I know what you are saying Angel, and I hope that one day God does reach out to me. Problem is, I have thought he has done that soooo many times before. But it wasn’t him. So to trust that again …….

    I am angry at God in some ways, but then I just take a look around. Ocean, trees, pets etc. A God that made all this has to have a heart.

    The journey for me continues. Thanks for your words, they are appreciated.

  • excogger says:

    Kirrily-

    Your search for Truth in your religious journeys has been truly amazing. That there exist so many diverse religions is a testimony to man’s attempts to find Truth about God and hence the meaning of life/ purpose in living, “the deal”, as you call it.

    After rejecting Armstrongism, or should I say being ejected from the “One True Church”, version 5,217, and losing nearly all of my friends in the process, I was a bit confused about God and His will, etc., to say the least. Fifteen years of dabbling in a few Christian communities did not help much in the Truth department, either. So I gave up on all churches/religions. As time passed I learned to love and appreciate people (of any “faith”) more and more. My business put me into contact with some truly wonderful people, even though by nature I am rather reclusive and shy.

    Then one day I came across a web-site that actually asked and answered some hard questions….Does God fail, does He have a “plan B” for humanity, what really is “hell” and “the lake of fire”, does Jesus save the world or only a tiny minority, can anyone truly oppose God’s will, do humans have “free will”, is God responsible for bad/evil in this world??, and many more questions in the Truth of our existence.

    By what you have revealed in your honest and heart-felt posts is that your journey along life’s path has revealed not a few truths to you, even through the teachings of different religions, but mainly through other experiences in life. I feel we are all here to learn the difference between good and bad, and to choose the good as our Father gives us the strength and discernment so to do. And you don’t need to be a member of a Church to live a godly and Spirit-led life. Once you understand this, the controlling techniques of Armstrongism and other authoritarian religions can have no impact on your life… you are truly free.

    Yes, you have learned some wonderful “lessons”, with much pain but consequently much gain. And you are much stronger for the exercise.

    One day Ronnie’s flock will have to learn what you know and live today…..that love is the centre and power in our lives, and not a book of rules spouted by some false prophet who takes God’s name in vain with his manipulative, religious bombast and eschatological laundry list of literal and spiritualised events.

    God is the Supreme Unfailing Master of circumstances and He wants you to know the Truth, so one day and perhaps little by little, you will. Just hang in there, enjoy life free from religion and beware of men’s opinions (including mine!). Anyone with God’s Spirit wishes you well and every success in life. So do I.

  • Kirrily Xpkg says:

    Excogger, what lovely words. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Angel said “There could be a million belief systems out there, including atheism – one of them is true.”

    Let me fix that for you: “There are millions of belief systems out there – not more than one of them is true.” Atheism is not a belief system, it’s the lack of a belief system. And everyone has their own belief system, even the ones who follow Weinland. An ex-member told me that if Weinland knew what some of his elders believed, they wouldn’t be elders.

    All this debate about what the Bible means is, well, not quite sure how to put it. Appears to me that the Bible doesn’t mean anything, and it means everything at the same time. It’s so vague that you can pick and choose, apply a concordance how you want, and have it mean anything. Which Weinland does over and over. It’s interesting that in all this debate, there’s no examination as to whether it’s really the word of God. Just an assumption that it is, but everyone else’s interpretation is incorrect.

    Whether or not the Bible is God’s word and no matter whose interpretation is correct, if any are, it’s still quite clear that Ronald Weinland is a false prophet. That would be the case even if it turned out that his non-prophetic theology were correct.

  • excogger says:

    A true prophet would go out into the desert, eat locusts (plenty of those in Victoria at the moment) and honey (be sure to bring his smoke pot), dress in a potato sack and baling twine and proclaim that Jesus is coming soon. He’d sure attract more media attention in the process!

  • RJ says:

    Hey Mal, This is to difficult to go back and forth on what we believe and how we interpret scripture in this format. However I have a question based on one verse that you mentioned and partially quoted:

    “Jesus was certainly divine and at one with God in mind and purpose. But eternally existing ? Co-equal with God ? How does that idea fit with these Scriptures ?

    (1Jo 4:12) No one has seen God at any time. ”

    How do you reconcile that with John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Father’s side, has made him known?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    “Hey Mal, This is to difficult to go back and forth”

    So let’s not. Let’s leave the minutia of Ron’s tedious doctrines alone and focus on his prophecies.

    RJ, Mal, anyone:

    Any droughts that we can attribute to Weinland? Any droughts in your area? Any water turned to blood? Is 1/3 of the vegetation dead yet, 21 months after the 1st trumpet blew?

  • angel says:

    My own take on belief systems is that everyone has one, and it takes faith to believe something, no matter what it is. Atheism is the belief that God doesn’t exist.

    The Bible certainly is vague on some things, but not everything – some things are stated quite clearly, and are consistent throughout the scriptures. In my own study what makes sense to me is to apply the most reasonable meaning that isn’t contradicted by other statements in scripture; I found that once I stopped letting someone else tell me what it’s supposed to mean it was alot easier to reconcile it. I would never say my understanding is correct and all others wrong; what a preposterous idea that would be – what I would say is that I listen to what others have to say, compare it to my current understanding, and ask for God’s help in correctly discerning His word – that’s all He expects of me.

    I believe the Person to ask about whether the Bible is God’s word is God Himself; as we all know, there are many men in this world that can’t be trusted, so if God is the One Who wants us to believe in Him I think He should be the One Who shows us the Bible came from Him. Many people have testified that God showed them this, and the Bible confirms that God desires to communicate with His creation, so a person has two choices: give that idea the benefit of the doubt and seek God sincerely, or refuse to believe God speaks to people and keep a closed mind and heart. The choice is ours.

    I whole-heartedly agree that it’s quite clear Ronald Weinland is a false prophet, and the idea that God would give him a correct theology when He won’t give him a correct prophecy makes no sense at all.

  • angel says:

    Kirrily,

    I want to go back and comment on a couple of your observations, just for conversations sake. Some of Paul’s writings are confusing, no doubt, but not all of them. Paul himself, though, said people shouldn’t argue over doubtful things; that we should seek to be likeminded, not divide over our differences, and not despise others because of these differences (it may be our own understanding that is lacking :D).

    Paul was also careful to explain that his teachings on grace should not be used as an excuse for lawlessness. Since Paul’s epistles make up much of the NT, and contain instruction for Christian living it makes sense that churches use them to teach Christians; this is essential since Jesus made the New Covenant. God is doing a different (better!) work thru the church than He did with the Jews.

    When I hear people say the Bible has caused so many of the world’s problems I always think to myself, did God hold a gun to their heads and force them to do things that He never told them to do in the scriptures? I just don’t understand why God gets blamed for so many things He didn’t do. Ron, for instance, has made prophecies in the name of God, but doesn’t the Bible make it clear that because his prophecies failed they were NOT from God? When someone says they’re doing something in God’s name we need to test it and see if the Bible confirms it or if the real source is human error. If it’s human error, why not blame the real culprit? Don’t know about you but I don’t like being blamed for someone else’s mistakes – it’s not fair.

    You say the Bible came alive for you, and I understand that because I experienced it, too. What I wonder, though, is if you think you “fell in love”, so to speak, with the plan taught by Armstrongism, and when it failed you it caused you to lose faith in the Bible as a whole. I ask these kinds of questions whenever I have the opportunity to talk to someone who once had faith and lost it because I’m interested to know what happened. I personally don’t put my faith in any particular church, pastor, doctrines – they’re all subject to being tested and tried to see if they line up with the clear teachings of scripture. The way I look at it is, if the Bible is true, it will stand up to and survive anything; false teachers, false prophets, false religions, philosophers, skeptics, atheists, etc. So far as I can tell – it does.

    The question was asked, do we examine the Bible to see if it’s really God’s word, or do we just assume that it is; for me, the answer is yes, I examine it. I compare it to other holy books; I consider the questions asked by atheists and skeptics; I’ve researched how the Bible came down to us over the centuries, etc. There are people who have studied the Bible in an attempt to disprove it who instead came to believe it – one example I can think of is Lee Strobel; he was mightily irritated when his wife became a Christian and set out to prove the Bible wrong. That didn’t happen and he ended up becoming a Christian apologist. The responsibility to take the time to research and examine any holy book or belief system rests with us. I know it seems tedious to have to do that, but some people have a harder time with faith than others; those are the people who need to spend more time researching this, but even then faith will need to come into the picture.

    Ron would probably not like what I’m saying; he wants people to believe him on his say so – he can forget it. I never heard of him before this debacle with his claiming to be God’s end-time prophet and one of the Two Witnesses, but once his prophecies failed I’m not interested in anything else he has to say, and not stupid enough to believe God is testing people by lying to Ron.

  • Mal says:

    RJ, I’m sure we would both relish further debate, but we need to respect Mike’s wishes.

    Just to say though, Mike, that a prophet is not only someone who predicts the future. A prophet is also an inspired interpreter of God’s Word. So wouldn’t you say that some debate about RW’s teachings and ‘Truths’ came within the scope of this forum ?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Thanks Mal. Yes, I understand the other meaning of the word prophet, but this blog is focused on the traditional meaning of the word, as used in Dt 18:22. And how that verse applies to Weinland. While I report on Weinland’s continual invention of doctrines, I’m not interested in examining them in depth. Isn’t The Weinland Witness blog open to that type of debate? Maybe not, no comments have appeared there nor on “Aaron Robinson’s” blog for several months. Perhaps since Weinland’s prophecies are a big dull dud, have to try to figure out some reason to follow him.

    Angel, I don’t think you understand what atheism. Atheists don’t have faith that God doesn’t exist. Christopher Hitchens has a chapter in his book titled “Why there Almost Certainly is no God”. If God made himself evident, truly evident as in not requiring some kind of philosophical argument, then Chris Hitchens would acknowledge his existence. Christopher needs harder evidence than the kind mentioned in Heb 11:1.

    If your belief system works for you, then it works for you. Sounds like your reconciling the bible’s deficiencies to suit yourself, as do all who try to live by it. At least you’re figuring it out on your own and not allowing yourself to be exploited by another.

    I’m wondering though — was there ever a time when you were somewhat attracted to Weinland’s prophecies?

  • angel says:

    Mike,

    I don’t know who Christopher Hitchens is, but without reading his book I can say he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Not trying to be argumentative, but I’m way past the point where I need to philosophize about whether there’s a God. When you have personal knowledge of the spiritual realm and God, you no longer need to be convinced. As I’ve said before, God’s existence is not something that can be proven to anyone; He must make Himself known to an individual, and that’s much better than having to take anyone’s word for it.

    I disagree that you don’t have to have faith in the idea that God doesn’t exist; that can be debated by people who have no personal knowledge of Him, but can’t be proven. To believe something that can’t be proven, IMO, requires faith.

    I’ve not found the Bible deficient, unless you mean it doesn’t tells us everything we would like to know, or that some of what it says is hard to impossible to fully understand – it lets us know that’s case, though, so it’s not like there’s an attempt to deceive anyone in that respect. What we need to know is stated quite clearly, I believe, so I don’t get hung up on the things I’m just curious about. I’m not thinking anything I have to say could change your mind, but I appreciate you letting me share my views.

    No, I was never even remotely attracted to Ron’s prophecies. Although I do believe there are prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled, I don’t believe anyone knows, or will be told in advance – the timing of those events. I’m very interested in cults; it’s fascinating, and sad, to see a false prophet in action. It’s a good thing I like to study the Bible because I was never able to just take someone’s word for their understanding of it. I have to see it and understand it myself. I have no respect, and little tolerance, for liars, so as soon as the first lie rolled off Ron’s tongue he lost whatever little credibility he had, and once I realized PKG was a splinter from the old WCG, which I had read about – that was all I needed to know.

  • angel says:

    Just one further comment about Chris Hitchens; I wonder if he is truly willing to allow God to make Himself evident to him. Some people say they are, but how do we really know? Bottom line is there are many believers who testify that God has indeed made Himself known to them, but this isn’t the kind of thing where you decide who you want to believe – God is the One Who has to do this, and He doesn’t do it on command; He chooses the timing.

    The Bible makes it clear that God requires faith; doesn’t have to be much – mine started off so small if it was visible it would have been a speck, but that’s all I needed.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Angel, it seems that you have faith that Christopher Hitchens doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And faith that Chris Hitchens absolutely believes there is no god. No, not trying to get you to read his book, just pointing this out. Of course one can’t prove there isn’t a god, any more than you can’t prove that there isn’t an invisible pink unicorn looking over your shoulder at the computer monitor reading along as you read this.

    But as far as the existence of God, you’re saying that you have hard evidence of his existence and don’t require faith? I’m not challenging you or trying to set you up to change your mind. Your belief system seems to be working for you, at least it’s not getting you hooked up with religious exploiters. Just curious where you’re coming from, and what your personal knowledge is. Not a sermon, but just the basics.

  • angel says:

    Mike,

    For many years I wondered if God was real. The few times I attempted to pray I felt like I was talking to myself. Although I leaned toward believing there was a God, if anyone were to ask I would have said, I don’t know – maybe. I couldn’t just take someone else’s word for it, and I couldn’t make myself have faith without some kind of proof, yet I knew of no one who could produce any proof. I reached a point in my life where I was willing to open my mind (and heart) to Him, but I found myself stuck – waiting for – I didn’t know what. Something that would somehow show me He was real. I would listen to people talk about God like He was real, and wonder if it could be so, or were they somehow lying to themselves. I chose to give them the benefit of the doubt; how could I know whether they were really hearing God or not?

    That question was settled about 13 years ago. It had been two years since I reached a point of actively seeking God, and nothing had happened. Quite frankly, I had given up; either He wasn’t there, or He wasn’t interested in me. Neither of those things turned out to be true.

    I could tell you exactly how it happened to me, but I’ve talked to alot of people whose experiences were nothing like mine, so how He made Himself known to me will probably not be the way He would choose to reach out to you. Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.” This is a very personal approach; when someone goes to the trouble of going to your house and knocks on the door, with the hope of being invited in to dine and spend time – this is Someone Who wants to know you intimately. This is what Jesus does; approach us individually – not to satisfy our curiosity or respond to demands for answers; not to justify to His creation why He does what He’s doing, but to give us the opportunity to know Him.

    This is why I say God doesn’t expect a believer to prove His existence; that’s a job God wants to do Himself.

  • Mantayo says:

    Herbert Armstrong used to rail against the “intellectuals” who sought to water down the truth that god had revealed through him, and every so often he had to institute a purge and get the church back on track. Of course it was only through the efforts of those same intellectuals that he was lead into the correct understanding of god’s teaching on divorce for example, or of the correct day to observe Pentecost. And of course too, his intensive research back in the 1930s didn’t involve anyone else’s writings or intellectual efforts – not much! In exactly the same manner, this drivel that Ron Weinland delivers is nothing more than the result of his mulling over what others have written concerning the greek, the hebrew, the aramaic, the latin, the King James english words that yet earlier scribes used. He is NOT a scholar, a linguist or a philosopher, and god does NOT whisper in his ear. New truths, new understanding – Humbug!

    Angel said “I don’t know who Christopher Hitchens is, but without reading his book I can say he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”

    That is a preposterous statement, and utterly unjustifiable. If you had written “I don’t know who Christopher Hitchens is, but without reading his book I can say I DON”T know what he’s talking about.” it would have been a reasonable comment.

    The assertion that athiests believe that god doesn’t exist, and therefore have (a) faith despite their protestations to the contrary, again shows a lack of understanding of the issue. To state that one has examined the evidence and has come to the conclusion that the tooth fairy does not exist, is not to proclaim one’s faith in the non-existence of the tooth fairy. If you insist that that is indeed the case, then you are being obscurantist and are debasing the language. There are many, many books and online resources to avail of which will expand on and ellucidate this matter. It is basic stuff in the philosophy of religion.