A Plague of Butts

hotelFalse Prophet Ronald Weinland is in Cincinnati this weekend. The formaldehyde fumes from the new carpet came close to shutting down the services, yesterday.  Which would have been relief from yet another boring sermon.  Ron went on one of his rants against those who throw paper towels on the floor in bathrooms, adding on those who throw cigarette butts on the street.  Perhaps he now regards being a litterer as worse than being a mocker.  When it came time for him to rant against his mockers, he just made a vague reference about lying websites which criticize his now demoted spiritual idol, Herbert Armstrong.  Ron asks why are there websites critical of HWA 24 years after his death?  What I’d like to know is: why is that incestuous lying con man and false prophet is still revered 24 years after his death?

atriumThis weekend is the training session for all the new elders.  I thought it would be nice for all the PKG members who were not able to attend to be able to see the location for this conference.

This hotel has a nice atrium which can also be used as an area to serve meals, such as the buffet which the new elders participated in after the riff raff was chased out at 12:30.  I wonder which catering options (200KB PDF File)starting at $17+service charge + tax they chose.

More photos below the fold.  Thanks to the elder who let me know where they are meeting this weekend.

After the meetings, the new elders can relax in the pool.

After the meetings, the new elders can relax in the pool.

The new elders staying in the hotel can enjoy a complimentary breakfast before starting their day.

The new elders staying in the hotel can enjoy a complimentary breakfast before starting their day.

Ready for a day of learning to be an elder.

Ready for a day of learning to be an elder and how to dunk people.

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100 Comments

  • jack635 says:

    I wonder if Ron knows that anything he orders was prepared in the same kitchen as this menu item?:

    SEAFOOD ALFREDO $23.00
    Scallops, Shrimp and Fresh Vegetables atop Bowtie Pasta, with Creamy Alfredo Sauce

  • RK says:

    “Ready for a day of learning to be an elder and how to dunk people. ”

    I wonder what the video screen is for.

    Maybe Ron put together some illustrations on how to conduct a baptism for a hundred or so at a time.

    Can you imagine, if a hotel staffer was able to look and listen to these training sessions, how utterly LOONEY it would seem to them ?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    These are stock photos from the hotel website. The leaking elder didn’t go so far as to give photos, just the location. That’s good enough 😀

  • Debbie says:

    “Ron asks why are there websites critical of HWA 24 years after his death? What I’d like to know is: why is that incestuous lying con man and false prophet is still revered 24 years after his death?”

    Very good point, Mike. This same principle operates with respect to those who revere Ronald Weinland. Both of these men have published extra-ordinary information which certain people latch onto as “revealed truth”. They believe that just because these men say they are “prophets” they are, despite their many failed prophecies. They believe that they are ‘men of God’ despite the much documented evidence, (from people having direct interactions), to the contrary.

    I recalled Mal from Citizen X’s forum so I popped over there & did some reading. Despite reams of info provided from XWHA who has had many personal dealings with Ronald Weinland & PKG, Mal believes the possiblility of the 2nd timeline – even tho’ he/she had come to the conclusion earlier that Ronald was a False Prophet (about the same time Citizen X declared Ronald false.) Mal is very likely still supporting 2nd timeline after Kirrily’s post.

    The thing that I don’t get is that these people, such as Mal & Aaron who are such fans of Ronald Weinland, his prophecies, his church etc. – they don’t represent themselves as tithe paying, baptized, members – putting their money where their mouth is – so to speak. I think it is cowardly for these arm-chair quarterbacks to tell others how to think, believe or how to live when they are not even on the playing field. And then to disregard/dismiss the actual experiences of those who have been directly involved – it simply demonstrates the level of ignorance they operate from.

  • matt says:

    I am not sure it is ingorance, but rather an unhealthy obsession with importance. Look at some of the presuppositions they all happily swallow:

    A): you can use the bible to foretell the future
    B): the prophecies thus obtained tell us this time is especially important, as opposed to all the time between the coming of jezus and now.

    Already we have moved up a notch compared to the rest of history – out of hundreds, our generation was chosen. Please note that christians have ALWAYS felt this – christs second coming was supposed to happen in the lifetime of the first christians. It is a religion of redemption, afterall, and this implies that there is something you need redeeming from (this life, sin, a bad world).

    Then we move on:

    C): by carefully interpreting different bits of the bible and cobbling them together, we can retro-engineer gods plan for us. God wants us to do this, and this gives us special knowledge that will allow us to serve him better.

    Now we are moving dangerously close to Hubris. All animals are equal, but some are just a little bit more equal than others.

    Many go a step further:

    D): Because of this special knowledge, I will be ready for the Rapture and will special treatment. Other people who do not agree with me will not make it to paradise or will not get the same reward.

    So you can see how it can be psychologically very seductive. It gives you a feeling of greater importance, and a sense of having access to absolute truths. Almost none of these people speak ancient greek or ancient hebrew. Almost none of them make in-depth analytical studies of the bible with reference to the historical situation the people writing it found themselves in. They are not interested in humdrum everyday knowledge. They seek prophesy, and prohesy for them / us. I have yet to see a single one come up with a prohpesy that did not in some way or other had something to do with them personally.

    Mind you, these people are not stupid or anything like that. They have simply chosen to direct their energies and enquiries down an avenue that can never, ever pay them back for their troubles in useful information. They chose to do so because the reward it claims to offer is so seductive. It happens to the best of them : after years of helping physics leap forward in strokes of bold genius, Isaac Newtom spent the last years of his life studying mystical Alchemy in a similar misguided enterprise.

    The problem is, some are so arrogant they feel they deserve 10% of peoples money for it, and feel they have the right to manipulate people and cause great harm. They go one step further:

    E): My Interpretation is inspired by God, and is therefor the End that justifies all Means. My view is more important that anything else – including all human life and feeling.

  • GD says:

    The 300 or so pkg members all believe they are special people . In England we have places for these kind of special people -we call them mental institutions !

  • Thorum says:

    GD says: “In England we have places for these kind of special people -we call them mental institutions !”

    Be thankful you are in England, I live here in America where the majority still meets on Sundays and bows to imaginary friends…and it is considered rational!!

  • Baywolfe says:

    matt, great rant! So true!

    I would only add one thing. Somebody show me where the methodology of attributing fulfilled prophesy to the bible is any different that those that peruse the quatrains of Nostradamus. It’s always the “after the fact”, “see how this was prophesied?” predictions that are 100% and none of the before-hand prophecies ever come true. Yes I mean YOU Ron.

    (Or are we still waiting for Qaddafi to destroy the west in a nuclear war, as was predicted in the Nostradamus movie almost 30 years ago?)

  • Steve says:

    To quote GD “The 300 or so pkg members all believe they are special people ”

    I wonder if Ron will pick up on this membership number and think of Gideon and his 300 and use it in his ministry as proof of some kind lol.

  • Whisper says:

    Is that 300 members or 300 households? It makes a difference monitarily as 300 members may break down to some 150 +/- households and 150 tithe checks, while 300 households would double that.
    Still, 150 checks a month is way to much money to put into the hands of a liar and a cheat who will use the $$ as he alone see’s fit.

    Anyone know the latest congregation number for the PKG and how many households that becomes?

    Thanks!

  • Kirrily Xpkg says:

    Matt, so true.
    Debbie, so well said

    When you believe God has called you, you do feel so honoured, so special, so important. That on it’s own would create obvious pride. This pride however, becomes hidden to the member as they tithe, and obey. Because of this, we saw our pride instead as humility. It wasn’t until I left that I realised how bad the pride was in myself, indeed consumed by it.

    Pride in the sense I have described is a despicable thing.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Back during the lead in to his first timeline, Ron often spoke of “breaking your pitcher” and “running down the hill” as metaphors for showing total resolve and support for his false prophecies. Yes, he often gave mention to the similar size of PKG back then to Gideon’s small army, and marveled at the tremendous impact they had by throwing their life savings into Google advertising.

    But if you read the account of Gideon’s army, they didn’t run down any hill. They crept up on the Midianite camp and then made a lot of racket to confuse them.

    He also described his group as a tithe of a tithe of a third of those who were baptized members of WCG prior to Tkach’s apostasy and opening of the 1st seal in December 1994. He prophesied that PKG would grow to encompass a full tithe of a third. With WCG membership in 1994 somewhere around 100,000, a third of that is around 33,000, a tithe of which is around 3,300, and a tithe of that around 330. Ron now says that the full tithe of the third won’t join PKG until the 5th trumpet.

  • matt says:

    Kirrily – the whole cult is designed that way. It is set up in such a way that if you engage with it honestly, and do not suspect there is a hidden agenda, you will be fooled. They say “we are a church that wants to follow Jezus” – what they don’t say is that “we have decided what jezus wants you to do, and we are the only ones to whom this knowledge is imparted”. They say “we do the work of jezus” but they don’t say “we will shame and punish you if you don’t follow our exact interpretation of what that is”.

    They say the first statement, but make damn sure that statement 2 is what you actually experience. This type of doublespeak makes it hard to criticise the cult. If you disagree with what the cult espouses, you are now against following jezus.

    They say “we want to be true christians” – but what they don’t say is “We are the only true christians and the only ones who will survive the end-time. Without us, you cannot be a good christian and survive the end-times”
    the special status is linked to cult-membership (and paying your tithes.) You can be as good a person as you want – it is only through the PKG that you will be saved.

    If you honestly engage with such dishonesty, you will end up with the short end of the stick. One of the nastier sides of these cultish groups is that they take a good quality and turn it into a weakness, thus sucking yet a bit more goodness out of the world.

  • Steve says:

    Ah Mike , i did not know he made gideon comparisons back then, thanks for lettin me know. As for this quote from you;

    “They crept up on the Midianite camp and then made a lot of racket to confuse them”

    Well Ron is and has accomplished tons of confusion to us “the enemy”…i guess we would be the midianites then lol

    But yeah i do remember now you mention it that Ron said tons and tons of people will eventually become part of the church…but that was back in 2008 in the first timeline/delusion

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    “Well Ron is and has accomplished tons of confusion to us “the enemy”…i guess we would be the midianites then lol”

    I disagree. It’s his members who are confused. If there’s any confusion on my part, it’s trying to understand why they continue to follow him after failure following failure.

  • Debbie says:

    Just to clarify –

    Definition of Ignorance – “is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information. This should not be confused with being unintelligent, as one’s level of intelligence and level of education or general awareness are not the same.”

    My emphasis would be for this part of the definition -“chooses to subjectively ignore information”

    I was not commenting on the level of intelligence or the morality of the PKG members –

    My comment was directed to the manner in which certain supporters of Ronald Weinland & PKG purposely avoid or disregard certain facts when presented.

    Case in point – a few years back, a former friend – a PKG member – refused to read information I provided her re: H.W. Armstrong in regards to his alcoholism, his over-spending of tithe monies, and accusations of ongoing incest, failed prophecies, etc. Even tho’ there were written accounts by different people all reporting similar circumstances, she flatly refused saying it was garbage.

  • Kirrily Xpkg says:

    Matt: love the clarity with which you stated those truths. I have never heard it put that way. I did let all this suck some goodness out of me, but that’s going to stop.

    I’m so glad my anger has been mostly worked through. Anger at ALL religion (now indifferent), anger at God (also now indifferent), and anger at myself.

    Yes, my life is SO much better without religion. I still believe that God exists, full stop. As to what the game is etc, I just don’t know.

    I don’t believe in any ‘truth’, except the ‘truth’ that works best for me. After all, that’s what we all do don’t we? From a PKG member, to a Catholic, to a Jedi…… We all believe what we believe because it works for us.

    I used to think there was a SINGLE truth/doctrine I needed to ‘find’, so I could be ‘saved’. I searched since I was a little girl, and thought I found it many times, that I knocked and the door was opened.

    I am not knocking anymore, there isn’t even a door anyway.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Kirrily: “I don’t believe in any ‘truth’, except the ‘truth’ that works best for me. After all, that’s what we all do don’t we? From a PKG member, to a Catholic, to a Jedi…… We all believe what we believe because it works for us.”

    Hear, hear!!!! I looked through my emails, it was exactly 54 weeks ago that Kirrily contacted me after having left PKG. (And no, my blog played no role in her decision to leave). It’s been a bumpy ride but I hope the path ahead continues to smooth.

  • Dennis says:

    Kirrily, that’s about the best summation of what it all leaves one I have ever heard. That is just how it has worked for me as well. I can believe in “God” but just as to what the end game is, I don’t know either. I guess that’s why we search. I searched myself since a little boy. You sound so familiar 🙂 I also maintain that it is the most sincere who, when disillusioned, become the most hurt and angry and also the worst enemies of mere religion.

  • matt says:

    debbie – good point.

    I think the whole church is set up to discourage critical thinking, to keep the flock focussed on internal cult matters and not on information from the mainstream, and to confuse thinking with double-speak, circle-reasoning and carrot-and-stick stratagems.

    It is classic cult stuff – it actively tries to insulate its members from the mainstream (facebook is forbidden, for instance) and it demonizes the outside world (sick, sick world). It uses loaded language to conflate all that is good with the church and all that is bad with the evil outside world to make it harder to criticise the cult and its leadership and to justify its huge demands on its members. It threatens with punishment and outcasting if you do not toe the line (not too long ago a UK elder was ousted for being on facebook). It systematically attacks its members self-esteem to make them more accepting of cult authority (it is very bad not to be humble – the more humility the better – to have an opinion on doctrine at all is considered pridefulness and is a sin)

    All these are strategems to make people look away from what is out there, to try to immunize them against mainstream opinion. The funny thing is that almost everyone thinks they would not work on them, but they are highly effective on almost everyone. The emotional barriers they create are so big that sometime, even if you show people irrefutable proof of how the cult is wrong, they will find some way to avoid having to accept it.

    Its like machiavelli decided to open up a sunday school really 🙂

    Kirrily – you’re too cool for religion, especially rons kind, and I can prove it: If what Ron says about God is true, then you are a nicer person than God. QED.

  • Aggie says:

    “The emotional barriers they create are so big that sometime, even if you show people irrefutable proof of how the cult is wrong, they will find some way to avoid having to accept it.”

    Three words. 1975 in Prophecy.

    To really understand how big the emotional barriers are, consider this: My family joined the church in 1976. 🙁

  • matt says:

    Hi Aggie

    “To really understand how big the emotional barriers are, consider this: My family joined the church in 1976.”

    I thought about that for a few minutes, and the implications leave me speechless.

  • Aggie says:

    If that left you speechless Matt, have this for a cherry on top of the fail-sundae: The first inkling I ever had that such an article even existed, was running across a reference to it on The Painful Truth website — in 2006.

    Fortunately for us, we have Weinland’s own words (and direct audio quotes!), to prevent any kind of whitewashing of his false prophecies, the way Armstrong was able to. These blogs were and are the ONLY reason there continue to be postponements and date changes and timeline changes; Weinland probably thought he could do the same thing Armstrong did, and all would be forgotten, once the first timeline expired (but the end goal, that of amassing a retirement fund for himself and Laura, would have been achieved).

    Things are different, in this universe, and we all know that’s not how it played out for PKG. But it is precisely because of the fact that he comes from the WCG universe (as do the rest of us ex-WCG members), that Weinland made the mistake of assuming he could repeat the history of the one true church. It was a mistake on his part, because that history didn’t happen here, in this timeline, in this universe.

    Why do you think the Christians can debunk The Compendium of World History so effectively now? Because that alternate history ISN’T TRUE HERE. It never was. God’s True Church no longer exists. When the universe it hinged upon imploded, in 1994, God went with it. We (ex-WCG members) are all exiles, in a world that has never been our own, because we’re from a parallel reality that has ceased to exist.

    All of the 700+ Church of God splinter groups are, almost two decades later, trying to hang on to a god and a history and a timeline, that just doesn’t exist anymore. They are pale ghosts, forever lost, and wandering amongst the living. They worship forgotten shadows, of a reality that never was and now, never will be.

  • Mal says:

    For me the 7000 year plan of God, with Jesus’ Millennial rule coming at the end of 6000 years, is solid theology. There are many ‘types and shadows’ in Scripture that bear this out.

    I was first shown this many years ago based on the understanding of the ancient Jewish rabbis. This was not an idea conjured up by HWA.

    It can fairly readily be shown that we are there or thereabouts at the 6000 year point now.

    There may be differing views about how these last few minutes on the prophetic clock are played out, but it is my belief that the basics are sound.

  • matt says:

    Aggie – astonishing. I had not considered it like that.

    Mal – what you are doing is the equivalent of staring at clouds until you see pictures in them.

    Name a random idea and I will back it up “based on the understanding of ancient rabbis”. This is because in the long, long history of judaism, rabbis have been writing non-stop, commenting on and re-interpreting their holy books. Some were sensible men trying to come up with relevant reinterpretations for their times. Others were wild mystics who wrote down their bizarre dreams about god and heaven. You can basically pick and mix as you like, especially if you dont mind mixing 15th-century material with pre-christian era sources. The older the material is, the more often it will have been re-written, edited, copied poorly, sometimes simply made up! As you have just shown, claiming that an idea is antique has been a favorite method of claiming it is authoritive.

    It cannot be fairly readily shown at all, unless you are willing to take the (often poor) translation of a reinterpretation of the edited version of something that was written by someone long ago who lived in a socio-historical context that you know nothing about, in a language that you do not speak, and link that to a modern pre-conceived notion of what you WANT to find.

    It is the same with Nostradamus. People find amazing predictions in them, but most of them only work if you don’t read it in the late medieval french it was actually written in. The prediction about Hitler actually refers to Hister, which at the time meant the river Danube.

    Mal, shall we set a date? A final date after which we agree that it is a load of nonsense to try to use the bible as a uoija board?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal said: “I was first shown this many years ago based on the understanding of the ancient Jewish rabbis. This was not an idea conjured up by HWA. It can fairly readily be shown that we are there or thereabouts at the 6000 year point now. ”

    Mal, since you believe in the authority of the ancient Jewish rabbis, check the Jewish calendar, do a little math, and report back to the rest of us how long it will be be before the end of man’s era. Should we replace that old clunker we’ve been driving, or try to nurse it along for just a few more months?

    But then, those who have been reading my blog already know.

  • Debbie says:

    Mal – to corroborate Mike’s info re: Jewish Calendar date – I suggest you Google the ” Jerusalem Post ” & you will see that today is March 5, 2010 or 19 Adar 5770 – I am not trying to change your belief in any way; just present you with the fact -i.e. 6000 minus 5770 = 230 years remaining according to the 6000 year plan –

    I am interested to know if you are a PKG member or have had contact with PKG – I recognized your name from the Citizen X site & that at one time you had come to the determination that Ronald was false – Now I see you are considering now that he might be telling the truth ?

    I have seen where you have posted that you have listened to Ronald’s sermons – Have you not noticed the condescending and demeaning remarks he addresses to his followers and his ranting & raving ?

  • Mal says:

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand it the Jewish calendar does not match reality because they don’t include some of the years they were in exile.

    A detailed summation of Biblical dates does indeed show we are close to the 6000 year point.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal, let’s pretend for the sake of discussion that about 230 years were lost from the Jewish calendar (further pretending that they lost the years but you found them) and that the true Jewish year should be 5990-something.

    Would that in any way prove that Ron Weinland is a prophet of God, despite the fact that nothing he has prophesied has come to pass? (And no, don’t dribble the economy here).

  • Mal says:

    Mike – no, that certainly doesn’t prove RW is a prophet of God.

    But as a personal believer in the fact that we have approx reached the 6000 years point, I consider it not unrealistic to expect the Scriptural ‘two witnesses’ to appear in our generation.

    Many will argue that ‘end times’ claims have been made on numerous occasions stretching back over the centuries, but my belief is that they were always doomed to failure as they were out of line with the 6000 years.

    So, for me, RW’s claims have been worthy of consideration. Having said that, I can well understand where you’re at personally with RW.

    Debbie – I am not a member of PKG. I have always been a member of ‘traditional Christianity’, but with strong beliefs about God’s Holy Days and the 7000 year plan of God.

    I contacted PKG for some info about 18 months ago but didn’t take it further. I dismissed RW as false soon after that, but now am not totally sure. His views on Joe Tkach and the splintering of WCOG and how it links with Scripture seem worthy of consideration. Also I find that his numerical sequences have patterns that cannot be instantly dismissed as occurring by chance.

    Regarding his sermons, I have to say that on the whole I find them interesting. No, I haven’t particularly noticed him ‘ranting and raving’.

    I know most folk on this blog disagree with my perspective on things and I respect everyone’s views.

  • jack635 says:

    And no, don’t dribble the economy here).

    It seems to me that we experience a recession every ten years or so. I predict the economy will start to fail again in 2019. Does that make me a prophet?

  • Aggie says:

    “I am not a member of PKG.”

    And here, we learn all we need to know, about “Mal”. Until you’re paying tithes to PKG, at which time you may be accepted for baptism, don’t try and armchair-quarterback the non-existent Armageddon for us “unbelievers” Mal. Because, as far as the church is concerned, YOU’RE one of the ones who’s going to fry in the Apocalypse as well. Unless you pony up 10% of your gross annual income to the Insane Lying False Prophet, that is. Then you MIGHT stand a chance, of surviving this Armageddon you believe is going to come to pass. (Which Armageddon, BTW? We’ve already had two-and-a-half false starts, and are rapidly heading for a third.)

    As for the other commenters on Mike’s blog, don’t bother with trying to “deconvert” Mal, as he is clearly not involved in any way, shape or form, with PKG as an organization. Which means he’s not coming under anything even approaching the financial, emotional, and psychological stressors that actual members of the church are subjected to, on a daily basis. He’s honestly not worth the time.

  • Aggie says:

    Ugh. “net” income, not gross income. I keep forgetting that the splinter churches have changed that rule, in an attempt to recruit more people/not look so tyrannical.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Seems that the number of possibly missing years from the Jewish calendar are no more than 165. If so then the current Jewish year of 5770 would actually be 5935 but we’d still have 65 years to go. A bit early to be looking for the Two Witnesses, and the real witnesses would be making more of a presence than a few appearances on single-market talk radio programs. There would be bloody fountains, droughts all over the place, and a trail of crispy mocker corpses.

    Ron was not the first one to come up with the 1335 day relationship from Trumpets of 2008 to Pentecost of 2012. Two other Armstrongites (James Malm and Bob Ardis) came up with it before he did. So he probably got it from them.

    If you haven’t noticed him ranting and raving, go back to the Feb 6 sermon and listen to the last 6 minutes. A cluster rant if I ever heard one.

    Not sure what “I can well understand where you’re at personally with RW” means. If you think I have some type of personal relationship with Weinland, let me disabuse you of that notion — I have never met the man of many self-assumed titles. I have no personal relationship with him.

  • Toby says:

    Hi Mike, I want to say thanks for the effort of keeping this site up and running. As a wcg member (and splinter) for over 40 yrs I have been helped in recent years by DDTFA, FPRW and Gavin’s AW to see that things are not as I thought them to be, so please continue to tolerate people like Mal when they go off topic, their comments and the responses are really helpful to people like me 🙂 it seems I have a lot to unlearn !!!

  • Debbie says:

    Mal – Thank you for your response – Your beliefs are your beliefs

    I find it interesting that you came here to ask the question – “what do you guys think of the 2nd timeline” or something like that – I get a strong feeling that you are having doubts although you are intrigued by the numerical sequences etc.

    Just as a little reminder – Mike, the moderator of this blog, published the 2nd timeline on this blog before Ronald Weinland preached it –

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Debbie is correct. The Insane Lying False Prophet shut down the first timeline on June 21, 2008 and on the same day (even before sundown) I published the new timeline on my old blog location. But it wasn’t spiritual on my part. Rather, It was pretty obvious that Ron was going to reboot his timeline later in the year, so I did some date calculations (Excel is wonderful for that) and discovered the date relationship between Trumpets 2008 and Pentecost 2012. It wasn’t rocket science.

    Toby, I find it interesting & puzzling how anyone can continue to consider the possibility that Weinland could be one of the two witnesses. Well, I do understand how his church members could get sucked into the delusion and make a commitment to it. But fence sitters like Aaron Robinson and Mal?

    Perhaps even so a similar mindset to a PKG member. The desire for a better world and willing to undergo some pain to get there. I remember a comment at a funeral I attended last year, one of the other attendees was saying that it would be good if the recession were much worse because it would mean that Christ would return. Uuuuhhh, did you think that it has been much worse without Christ returning?

  • Aggie says:

    So the discussion of cognitive dissonance in this thread (““The emotional barriers they create are so big that sometime, even if you show people irrefutable proof of how the cult is wrong, they will find some way to avoid having to accept it.”) leads me to recommend this podcast (From the excellent DJ Grothe), interviewing Carol Tavris.

  • Toby says:

    Mike said – “how anyone can continue to consider the possibility that Weinland could be one of the two witnesses?”

    My recent experiences are showing me that people believe what they want to believe, logic doesn’t come into it. I listened to Ron Weinland on the James Whale show, he said then that if his words did not come to pass he was a false prophet and that he then would stop preaching and to do otherwise would be insane. What need is there for others to condemn him when his own words do that for us. Mal would benefit from listening to that podcast if anyone has a link

  • Mal says:

    Aggie – thanks for your last post (now seemingly removed). It gives an idea of how traumatized WCOG members became after the time Mr Tkach gave his sermon. Like their whole world had collapsed, and not surprising that it drove a lot of former members to aethiism. I can understand how you would find my posts on this blog irritating. Particularly as I am an outsider who never experienced life inside WCOG or any of the splinters.

    However, I do have an ongoing curiosity about RW, albeit as an outsider. This curiosity doesn’t have too much longer to run as it will be clear to me in a few more months if he is false or not. Another timeline from him would be out of the question.

    Debbie – it seems from Mike’s post (now seemingly removed) that RW is not wrong when he states that Mr Tkach died exactly 40 Sabbaths (280 days) after he first gave his crucial sermon. As you will know, RW’s interpretation of this is that God allowed Mr Tkach’s death as a judgement. The number 40 is often used for judgement in Scripture.

    As you will also know, RW insists that Mr Tkach was the end-times ‘man of sin’ of 2Thess 2 vs 3,4 who said, amongst other things, that keeping God’s Holy Days was no longer important, and it was fine to replace these with Christmas, Easter etc. This was like a bomb exploding which decimated the WCOG. As an outsider, RW’s view on Mr Tkach certainly seems unconventional, but does seem feasible. Presumably, nobody here gives this any credence ?

  • Mal says:

    Mike – I won’t labour the 6000 years thing beyond this post.

    I believe that the Bible itself gives the answer to this.

    By carefully adding up all the Biblical years, such as the ages of the Patriarchs, it can be shown that Jesus first came approx 4000 years from Adam. We cannot be absolutely precise to within a handful of years, but there is enough evidence to show we are now there or thereabouts at the 6000 year point.

    The following web link is an example where the summation of the years is shown in detail:

    http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9807/980715_h.html

    You will see that one small piece of information requires an assumption. However, there is sufficient information to show that we are certainly not 230 years away (Jerusalem Post year 5770). In fact, RW’s position is reasonable, that we are there or thereabouts in our generation.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal, perhaps the posts you think were removed are over on this other thread. This conversation has taken place on multiple threads. I’m not real big on quiet editing to pretend something didn’t happen the way Ron is.

    You give numerology great significance. But what is the source of RW’s authority? Just because he noticed that a certain event happened before or after another event by a certain number of days? If you want to look at dates, what was the significance that Weinland was too ill to preach on the 40th sabbath of the Great Tribulation? What is the significance that it’s more than 40 weeks since he cursed me with a speedy death, and I’m still mocking and criticizing away.

    “Aaron Robinson” has stated his deadline for determining the validity of Ron as a prophet of God. And now you say that you have some sort of deadline as well. What is it in particular — by what date will you climb down off the fence depending on whether or not what event has taken place?

  • Mal says:

    Mike – It is interesting to see that you and others predicted the second timeline before RW announced it. But, with respect, that doesn’t change anything for me concerning the sequence of events.

    The fact remains that RW had powerful inspiration to announce the very specific year of 2008, as the countdown to Jesus’ return, BEFORE he saw any link with God’s Holy Days. The inspiration for 2008 clearly was so powerful that he has laid everything on the line for it.

    It is clear to me from listening to his sermons that the man absolutely believes in the message he is bringing. I can in no way believe he doing this for personal financial gain, luxury living or anything else. I’m sure if all this comes to nothing his personal trauma will be the equal of, or greater than, anything experienced by folk in the WCOG breakup.

    He was so confident about 2008 that he produced a first timeline based on his understanding (and multitudes of others) that Jesus would return on trumpets 2011. He admitted at the time that he was surprised there was no link he could see between the numbers in Daniel 12 and God’s Festivals.

    Then comes the second timeline, where there is an exact tie up with 1335 and 280. Whether you and others saw it first or not doesn’t alter the fact that it is there, and that he didn’t see it when he first announced the very specific year of 2008.

    If he had first searched for links with 1335 and 280 and subsequently announced 2008, I would have seen this as less remarkable than what has actually occurred with the second timeline.

    The chart on PKG website under ‘Publications’ and ‘The 50 Truths of God’ shows concisely all the numbers, dates and church historical links he has now come up with (all geared around the very specific year of 2008).

    The odds against these links occurring by chance is high enough to maintain my interest in him, at least for a few more months.

    If his timeline comes to nothing, I believe the man will have been the victim of a complex satanic deception and will end up totally traumatized. I am, of course, not forgetting a similar effect on members of PKG.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    “fact remains that RW had powerful inspiration to announce the very specific year of 2008”. There’s absolutely no evidence of any inspiration, whether satanic or otherwise.

    I also think that RW believes what he is preaching. RW deceived himself first before deceiving others. And when this timeline has failed so much that even he won’t be able to deny it, he’ll deceive himself into a follow-on explanation — he will not be “totally traumatized” nor will he be in any more need of psychiatric help than he already is. A sizable number of his current followers will remain followers, that is they meet their natural end as happened to Roger from Texas last week.

    Regarding the 6000-year thing, looks like we need to choose an authority if one exists. So much for “ancient Jewish rabbis”, huh. Guess their rabbinical authority fell by the wayside somewhere along the way so current rabbis don’t have it. If Adam to Jesus was 4000 years, and by most accounts Jesus was born 4 BCE, then 2012 would be 6015 years after Adam (no year zero). Given the uncertainty you point out, you can’t say that we’re not already past the 6000 year point. I imagine that even after the Jewish year 6000 elapses 230 years from now, there will still be someone promoting the 7000-year plan of God.

    Since we’ve been posting past each other, I point out my response two comments back, for the posts you were looking for and for the question I had regarding what limits you’ve put on how long your interest in Weinland could continue.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Mal, with respect, you keep ignoring what I have written here. You have stated (correct me if I am wrong) that you believe that Ron was ‘given’ the year 2008 by God, and that he worked out the first timeline for himself (given prior knowledge of holy days etc).

    This is totally false. Again, it is mentioned in his sermons and radio interviews that Ron said THE FIRST TIMELINE WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY CHRIST. He went to great lengths to tell us that he loved ‘working with numbers’ and that he never would have been able to work out the first timeline HIMSELF. This was proof to him that the FIRST TIMELINE WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD (he of course was dumbfounded by this).

    I repeat, RON STATED THAT THE FIRST TIMELINE WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY CHRIST, and went on to say how NO ONE COULD WORK IT OUT FOR THEMSELVES.

    Ok, so second timeline comes along, and other groups come up with it FIRST (before Ronnie) themselves, including Mike – then Ron CHANGED HIS MIND AND SAYS THE TIMING WAS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

    Contradiction after contradiction after contradiction from the insane, LIAR.

  • Mal says:

    Ok Mike, I found the posts I was looking for – thanks.

    “There’s absolutely no evidence of any inspiration, whether satanic or otherwise”.

    I would suggest RW could not risk conjuring up out of thin air something as specific as 2008 and then attach a definite timeline to it. The chance of failure and ridicule would be virtually absolute. His level of confidence tells me he got inspiration from some source. The question for me is which source ?

    How long will I wait ? – Obviously nothing can go beyond Pentecost 2012. No excuses on that one would be acceptable to me in any shape or form.

    But certain physical events (not ‘spiritual realm’ excuses) will have to happen long before that as the ‘trumpets are blown’. Like Aaron, I will most likely give up on him around start of 2011. But with progressively more doubt creeping in up to that point if his ‘thunders’ don’t accelerate.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Ignored again ….. *sigh*.

    So interesting how people see what they want to…..

  • Mal says:

    Sorry Kirrily. Certainly didn’t intend to ignore you. Saw your post just as I was bedding down for the night.

    Just to clarify. No, I don’t categorically believe RW was given 2008 and his timeline by God, but I think that for a little while longer it remains a possibility.

    I do believe that what he has come up with, not just the dates and the timeline, but the whole way he has linked the history of the church with Scripture is extraordinary. I don’t believe he is deliberately lying. He believes totally that he is who he says, and that the message he is bringing is from God. The question for me is ‘Where is he getting this from, is it from God or is it from the arch-deceiver?’

    When he said that the first timeline was given to him by Christ, I find it reasonable to assume he meant that the specific year of 2008 was given to him by Christ and also the association of the 1335, 1290 and 1260 of Daniel 12 into a timeline was given to him by Christ. Also, things like the meaning of the 1335 being the time of the sealing of the 144,000, the 1290 being the opening of the 7th seal etc was given to him by Christ. None of that has changed.

    He then matched all this to 2008 by stepping back from ‘Trumpets’ 2011. For those interested in God’s Festivals, ‘Trumpets’ is almost universally taken to be the occasion for Christ’s return. Then it seems to me almost like the final piece of the jigsaw was put into place and then all the associated numbers fell into a pattern, but still linked with the specific year 2008.

    1335, the basic number for his timeline was seen to fall exactly between Trumpets 2008 and Pentecost 2012. But to give this any credence, I would have to ask myself if 1335 falling between these two specific Festivals made any sense.

    My thinking is that yes it makes some sense that ‘Trumpets’ would be the announcement or the signalling for the start of the blowing of 7 trumpets with Christ actually returning at the 7th trumpet. As for Christ returning at Pentecost, this is not the place for an in-depth theological discussion, but I believe this could also make some sense since Pentecost is linked with bringing two leavened loaves before the Lord (possibly the 144,000 ?). Christ alone was unleavened and he fulfilled the Festival of Firstfruits when he was resurrected.

  • Dave says:

    Kirrily, I reckon even Dill Weed Jnr’s claws could not hold him to a fence like some who grapple for a grip on Ronnie’s rickety, rotten pale fence. 🙂

  • matt says:

    I have to disagree with the satanic deception or honestly deluded ron theory – Ron was bold enough to claim that if his predictions did not come true – and they did not – he was a false prophet. If he were sincere, he would at that time simply admitted that he got it totally wrong. This would have been the action of an honest man. In stead he re-worked the whole story to fit around reality, and claimed that this was gods plan afterall. This is not the action of an honest man, but of a charlatan. He may suffer from religious mania and believe that god has made him extra-special, but he does deceive intentionally to protect this status towards his congregation.

    It may be that he believes it doesn’t matter if he lies, because all he does is automatically part of gods plan and therefor for the greater good – this would be the religeous mania part. But he does lie, and he knows he does so, or else he would feel no reason to cover his lies up. Why cover up if you are doing the work of an almighty, omnibenevolent god? There would be absolutely no point.

    Mal – one word for you. Alchemy. Unless you test your theories in an unequivocal way you will be stuck in the theoretic phase forever. Only pursue this avenue if you enjoy it, because I can give you one prediction I am fairly confident in: this one will never yield anything demonstrably practical.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal, Kirrily is pointing out that Ron didn’t say that (1) the Great Tribulation had to start in 2008 and that (2) since we “know” Christ returns on Trumpets then the 1335 days has to start on 2/2/08. Well, he did say that but only after the first one fell apart — before that he was telling his followers that Christ gave him the first timeline.

    It’s now fully 14 months after 2008. Where’s the Great Tribulation? Where are all the thunders — the thunders for which PKG prayed and fasted for 2 days?

    Let’s look at page 199 of 2008 GFW

    “The reason this book and The Prophesied End-Time have so much to say about specific events that will take place in the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdom, and much of western Europe is that these nations are very specifically identified as the descendents of those lost ten tribes of Israel! End-time events focus first on the demise of these nations over the next couple of years. These events have everything to do with knowing the true God of Abraham.”

    Remember that 2008 GFW was published November of 2006, more than a “couple of years” ago.

  • Debbie says:

    Mal said –

    Debbie – it seems from Mike’s post (now seemingly removed) that RW is not wrong when he states that Mr Tkach died exactly 40 Sabbaths (280 days) after he first gave his crucial sermon. As you will know, RW’s interpretation of this is that God allowed Mr Tkach’s death as a judgement. The number 40 is often used for judgement in Scripture.

    Debbie says –

    Believe what you want to – it is your choice.

    I must ask you these questions, and I hope you will have the courage to ask yourself – Why you are not ‘putting your money where your mouth is’ so to speak? – If you believe so strongly in the prophecies of Ronald Weinland, why are you sitting in safety on the fence post? If you are a believer in the 50 Truths of PKG, why are you not a baptized member who is required to pay tithes & offerings? Would you be willing to lose your job for the sake of Sabbath Keeping? Would you be willing to turn your back on your family members for the sake of Ronald Weinland & PKG church?

    Personally, I believe that somewhere inside of you is doubt – otherwise you would have acted upon your beliefs.

  • Mal says:

    Mike – Kirrily would know far better than me as she was actually part of PKG. However, I am puzzled by your last post since I thought it was understood at the time that RW worked back from Trumpets 2011. I can’t point to a particular sermon right now, but I’m fairly confident I understood where 02/02/08 came from before the first timeline fell apart.

    “It’s now fully 14 months after 2008. Where’s the Great Tribulation? Where are all the thunders — the thunders that PKG prayed and fasted for 2 days?”

    You’re right, this is certainly not living up to what we would expect. Could it have a slow start and a sudden acceleration towards the end ? That is what he is asking us to believe.

    Certainly the countries he has listed in his book are not in great shape. Are they on the edge of a financial precipice with anarchy to follow ? Time will soon tell. Earthquake activity has been pretty high this year. Another one in Turkey today.

  • Mal says:

    Debbie – You’re right, I have significant doubts and I am certainly not rushing to join PKG. I am simply saying that I remain watchful for the time being. There is enough about RW, his dates, his timelines, his apparent linking of Scriptures with church history as well as the current state of the world to keep me interested a few months more.

    Matt – I respect your view. What I’m about to say probably won’t sit well with you and others. If I had been the one in Ron Weinland’s shoes and I was totally and utterly convinced I had heard from God regarding the specific year 2008 and the 1335/1290/1260 timeline; and then the 1335/280 connection had appeared, I would most likely have seen it as a sign from God and changed the timeline just like he did. I certainly don’t feel I can be judgemental of the man on that one.

  • matt says:

    Mal – there is a problem with that. It means that you can simply stack revelation upon revelation endlessly, with each step in between being both wrong and gods message to you at the same time. It seems a bit of a mire to me, that you can only escape from by an appeal to ignorance – it is gods plan and we are not fit to understand it. This is problematic as well because you are using the correctness of the revelation as proof of the fact that it came from god.

    If you accept this line of thought, you trap yourself in circle-reasoning, and you can no longer make any meaningful statements.

    It also means that you can simply endlessly defer the fulfillment of a prophesy without ever saying that the prophesy is wrong by adding fresh revelation on top of it. This makes it equally impossible for the prophesy to be right – it simply makes them irrelevant, as it is never tested for truth.

    I have a prediction that we can easily test : in 5 years time, health and good fortune allowing, we will both still be around and we will be able to say that the end of the world did not happen. Possibly you will make a remark to me at that time stating that there are a lot more hurricanes that year, and that there are a bunch of wars going on, and that that may be a sign that it is getting closer though. I will say that that was what you said last time. You will then find an amazing set of correlates between often-occurring numbers in the bible and the number of hurricanes happening at that time, and some curious connections between their names and certain bible-verses. At that stage the best thing to do would probably be to go for a beer and talk about something else.

    There are several instances where Ronald has simply lied. The famous “Nothing happened. Ofcourse not – I never said anything would “Happen”. It’s a spiritual thing” statement he made after some thunder or trumpet failed to appear is an act of covering up a failed prophesy. He HAD said things would happen, in a very tangible and measurable way. A more honest man would have said “I was as surprised as you were – apparently it is a spiritual thing. Go figure!” He dealt with his own being plain wrong by making it seem like he was never wrong at all. This is conscious dishonesty, to keep his standing in and influence over the congregation.

  • Debbie says:

    Mike (DDTFA) says:
    February 20, 2010 at 08:03
    Here’s a more complete quote from the 3/22/08 sermon as transcribed by Aggie on his blog:

    “Just like what we believed that just last week here. Oh last week? 18th. [someone laughs] Yeah. The seventh seal was opened. Some, some write in the emails and say, Oh, nothing happened! [Weinland makes mocking voice and there is laughter] You know? Well you know? Did I say anything was going to happen on the 18th? [Yes he did. On page 23 of 2008: God’s Final Witness, Ronald Weinland said “…and the world will be shocked and in horror on the day that the seventh seal is opened.”] It’s a spiritual thing. I thought I made that abundantly clear. But God made it quite clear through what he was giving…….”

    Matt said:

    He dealt with his own being plain wrong by making it seem like he was never wrong at all. This is conscious dishonesty, to keep his standing in and influence over the congregation.

    Debbie said: I totally agree

  • Mal says:

    Thanks Matt – I appreciate your post. Yes indeed, it could well be that in 5 years time all this RW thing could be behind us and I’ll be a lot wiser.

    Regarding your last para., yes I agree that the issue of him spiritualizing away the ‘1st Trumpet’ is a major concern.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Hi Mal, sorry I said you ignored me – I thought you had.

    Some facts to ponder:- (a summary) – I know I am repeating myself……

    1. Ron said first timeline was GIVEN by GOD, and that he loved working with numbers, but never could have come up with the FIRST timeline HIMSELF. GOD HAD TO GIVE IT.
    2. First timeline failure, Ron THEN said he WORKED IT OUT FOR HIMSELF GOING BACKWARDS from Trumpets 2011 – OK, so then HE MADE IT UP HIMSELF based simply that God had given him 2008, and prior knowledge on feast days and their meanings.

    Ok, So firstly the ENTIRE first timeline was given by God, then when it failed, suddenly only the YEAR 2008 was given by God……, and he had worked it out for himself…. A LIE BY RON WEINLAND, A CHANGE IN STORY (a story that was GIVEN BY GOD, but it changed….. WTF?).

    More facts:-

    * Even when the first timeline FAILED, he did not admit he was wrong at first (ie. It’s a spiritual thing) and indeed went on the say that indeed the FIRST TRUMPET had blown (the Pope)…. ANOTHER LIE (which is later re-canted).

    * He told his members at the time that THIS WAS NOW A TEST for those in his church (like a false start to see who would keep believing).

    * This goes against what he was teaching, that NOW WAS THE TIME GOD WAS GOING TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO THE WORLD (yes, the WORLD), but now it was just a test for His ‘Church’???? Again, YET ANOTHER change in story.

    * Timeline 1, Ronnie had said NO ONE could work out the timing themselves – it HAD to be given by God.
    * Timeline 2, (people had worked out the second timeline BEFORE God’s most formidable prophet of all time) Ronnie then states the timing “IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE”.

    I could go on and on, and on – I have already done that here on this blog in numerous posts.

    My point? Ron changes his ‘Prophecies’, his reasoning, since the beginning he has changed EVERYTHING.

    The best way to ‘Prophecy’ the future, is to look at the past.

    2 World Wars, Famine, Natural Disasters, Plagues etc – and this will keep happening until the end of time. Mal, you mention an Earthquake in Turkey, and that all countries mentioned are not in a good state. Untrue. Australia (where I live) is at the moment, one of the STRONGEST economies in the world. (Although now Labor has got us into HEAPS of debt).

    When I was in Ronnie’s church and the GFC was happening at the time, you can imagine that I indeed thought the global crash was occuring, and that Aus, Britain, USA was indeed falling. My point…. no matter what is going on in the world, you could think Ronnie’s stuff is coming true. Trouble is, EVERY DAMN PROPHET out there is saying the same thing.

    Yeah, there will be another World War, there will be more terrible natural disasters, there will be another global plague that will kill off heaps of people – IT’S ALL HAPPENED BEFORE AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

    Ron told us that to tell him apart from EVERYONE else who has ever sprouted off these things is that THINGS WILL HAPPEN EXACTLY (again, EXACTLY) as he has stated……. NOTHING HE HAS STATED HAS HAPPENED……

    You know what I liked about Ron at first? He said (to the effect of) ‘You know, there is so much confusion out there. There are many prophets out there saying this, saying that. How do you know what is true? How do you know who to listen to? That’s what God is doing now, through me. On April 17 (2008), people will know I am who I say I am. God is working to get rid of all the confusion out there….God is beginning to reveal Himself to the WORLD and powerfully so. You don’t have to believe it right now, but on April 17th, people will begin to know as the terrible events unfold EXACTLY as I have stated and as God Himself has given it’.

    Right……… 😉

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    PS….. If this is God’s way of getting rid of confusion, I could argue that God Himself is the Devil….. as the Devil is the author of confusion (if you believe the Bible, which again is Confusion).

    What if the deception is that God is the Devil and the Devil is God??? Now thats confusing…. LOL!!!!

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Here’s a YouTube video relevant to Debbie’s comment: Includes an Audio Clip from March 22, 2008 about the first opening of the 7th seal, followed by another clip of Ron reading from 2008 GFW. Also includes clips of his death threats to mockers.

  • Mal says:

    Kirrily/Debbie/Mike – you have provided compelling arguments.

    Having now read several posts on this forum, as well as on other blogs associated with this one, by Aggie and others, it has brought home to me the true scale of the devastation and havoc wreaked on the WCOG and on people’s lives by Joe Tkach’s sermon on Dec 17th 1994. I certainly understand better now where RW got the notion that Mr Tkach could be the ‘man of sin’ of 2Thess2 v 3,4, and that ‘the falling away’ in that particular Scripture was linked to WCOG. This could well turn out to be complete ‘pie in the sky’ from him, but to an outsider like me it has been one of RW’s ‘Truths’ worth considering.

    Kirrily – “Yeah, there will be another World War, there will be more terrible natural disasters, there will be another global plague that will kill off heaps of people – IT’S ALL HAPPENED BEFORE AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN”

    The difference is that the Bible states that at the time of the end of the age there will be an unmistakeable increase in these things, before God intervenes with the Second Coming. By unmistakeable, I mean a step change to anything that has gone before. This may sound like doom and gloom, but God’s intervention will bring about the kind of world we have all dreamed about.

    I am someone who believes in ‘the 6000 years’ and that at the end of ‘the 6000 years’ this will come to pass. With so many ‘false starts’ I can understand people’s skepticism as well as loss of faith. But this is how I read the Bible and this is what I’m expecting. When is the end of 6000 years ? We can’t be precise, but I believe the evidence is there that we are close enough to be watchful. Understand that these are my beliefs, I am not trying to force them on you.

  • matt says:

    Mal- thats fair enough. Just please do not forget to live a nice life in the meantime. Its a nice world, and it would be a shame to sit around waiting for it to end without making the most out of our go on this rock.

    As for Tkach being the son of perdition – thats another example of the inward-looking nature of the whole armstrongian set. To the rest of us it seems a little strange that the son of perdition only has anything to do with a minute splinter-sect of christianity, and that apparently the other 5 billion of us are only extras. I can see why it would work for them, because they really believed they were the most important group of people on the planet. For most of us, it is actually the most preposterous of the truths – the idea that all of history, indeed the history of the universe, revolves around a small elderly man and whoever is willing to fork over 1/10th of their income for a front-row seat at the apocalypse.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal, the lack of a step change in natural disasters is one of my points. During November of 2008, I posted my “Refail Ron” series on my former blog location about the lack of such an unmistakable step change in the thunders described in the chapter of 2008 GFW “The Seven Thunders of the 6th Seal”. November 14th of 2008 was the reopening of the 7th seal, and now 16 months into the 7th seal we’re still waiting for an undeniable increase in these thunders.

  • Aggie says:

    “I listened to Ron Weinland on the James Whale show, he said then that if his words did not come to pass he was a false prophet and that he then would stop preaching and to do otherwise would be insane. What need is there for others to condemn him when his own words do that for us. Mal would benefit from listening to that podcast if anyone has a link”

    Ask, and ye shall, er, receive.

    Also, don’t miss Weinland on the McConnell show after the failure of Timeline One. Interesting to note, the McConnell show was the only radio show Weinland went on, after Timeline One failed to pan out.

  • Aggie says:

    “For most of us, it is actually the most preposterous of the truths – the idea that all of history, indeed the history of the universe, revolves around a small elderly man and whoever is willing to fork over 1/10th of their income for a front-row seat at the apocalypse.”

    Yeeouch. As one from that particular universe, that hits pretty close to home, Kirrily. 🙁

  • matt says:

    sorry aggie

  • Aggie says:

    Whoops, wrong attribution, my turn to apologize. 😮 But, yeah, that’s exactly it in a nutshell Matt. That’s what life was like in WCG. The splinter groups cannot even HOPE to recreate that, even though most of them are continuing to try. Preposterous, ridiculous, and yet it was the one and only thing we based our entire lives around — and all of it, every last jot and tittle, was a damned lie.

  • Aggie says:

    “What if the deception is that God is the Devil and the Devil is God??? “

    That’s what the gnostics believe. “The god of this world” is really “the god of this world”, apparently!

  • Mal says:

    “What if the deception is that God is the Devil and the Devil is God??? “

    This is an interesting point originally from Kirrily.

    I found the book “Into the Father’s Heart” by Michael. F. Klute (for free download see link below) gives potential answers to this question.

    http://www.intothefathersheart.com/

    This author suggests that the violent and bloodthirsty events in the Old Testament seemingly from God are actually from Satan.

    He suggests the Bible is written the way it is because God at all times is Sovereign. God allows certain things to take place due to man’s fallen nature and free will, but the reality is that it is Satan behind all the violence, maiming and killing and not God.

    For example, the book suggests there were two ‘Lords’ at mount Sinai, the true Lord and the false ‘Lord’ who was Satan. It was Satan who frightened the people with smoke, darkness, lightning and quaking. It was Satan who promoted the animal sacrifice system.

    Jesus came as the human face of the true God, who is a God of total love. The true God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

  • matt says:

    Dont get me started now mal 🙂 Mike will kick my bum for preaching if you do!

  • Aggie says:

    “He suggests the Bible is written the way it is because God at all times is Sovereign. God allows certain things to take place due to man’s fallen nature and free will, but the reality is that it is Satan behind all the violence, maiming and killing and not God.”

    That’s some primo hand-waving right there, Mal. It’s also sickeningly anti-Semitic. Like I keep telling people, Jews and Christians worship completely different deities, so there’s absolutely no cause for Christians to be as racist and intolerant as they are, towards the Jews (or to that other branch of the Abrahamic tree, the Muslims, either). But, then again, that’s all down to what unfortunately made the Christian canon as “holy” — when, before Constantine, those books weren’t even in widespread use at all! (Which doesn’t even touch on the contradictions and inconsistencies between them all.)

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Perhaps there’s an aspect of yin-yang to “God”.

    In the end, we’re all blind men feeling up the elephant. Better to live our lives as best we can, in case that’s all we get.

  • Aggie says:

    Pascal’s Wager? Never thought you’d be one for that particular teleology, Mike. 😉

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Huh? You’re reading words in my comment I didn’t use. In fact, what I said is the opposite of Pascal’s Wager.

  • GD says:

    Ron says one thing -Then Ron says another – its all part of his job ! to keep the money coming in ! That is all he cares about -nothing !! else !

  • Mal says:

    Aggie said:

    “That’s some primo hand-waving right there, Mal. It’s also sickeningly anti-Semitic.”

    Not sure what line of reasoning you’re following Aggie. Sickeningly anti-Semitic ???

    “…….. there’s absolutely no cause for Christians to be as racist and intolerant as they are, towards the Jews (or to that other branch of the Abrahamic tree, the Muslims, either).”

    Totally agree Aggie. We are to show love to all. But to be firm as Christians that Jesus Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life.

    “But, then again, that’s all down to what unfortunately made the Christian canon as “holy” — when, before Constantine, those books weren’t even in widespread use at all! (Which doesn’t even touch on the contradictions and inconsistencies between them all.)”

    Unfortunately ?? – I’m someone who believes that God’s Holy Spirit was in control of the Christian canon. In my Christian experience, the apparent ‘contradictions and inconsistencies’ have been down to my own understanding and not any shortfall in God’s Word.

  • Aggie says:

    “We are to show love to all. But to be firm as Christians that Jesus Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life.”

    That’s a self-contradicting statement, Mal. Oh, and by the way, even Ron Weinland does not agree with your statement. The Church of God-Preparing for the Kingdom of God is unitarian; the reject the deification of the christological figure.

    Is that, at last, enough of a deal-breaker for you, Mal?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    On April 19, 2008 Ronald Weinland spewed out:

    For those who want to mock, I do forewarn you, you’re going to cease, or you will die. You see, I have a unique job and you just don’t understand what that job is. So you just don’t understand, you don’t know the power of God, and what he has given to me to do. I have a job and God has molded and fashioned me and prepared me with the boldness and the strength and the confidence to do this job.

    And my first exercise in use of power that God has granted me in Revelation 11 is to you – you mockers. To you who mock and ridicule God and his prophets. Truly. It begins with you, first and foremost. You will be the first to experience some of the things that begin to take place. You don’t have to wait long. For those who mock, again, from this day forward, by what you say against God’s people, by what you say against the truths of God, by what you say against God’s prophets. You will suffer from sickness that will eat you from the inside out, and you will die. Your death will not be quick.

    After the first timeline failed, and Ron restarted the second one, he followed up on Dec 20, 2008 with:

    Just like I mentioned back in April, in a sermon. I had a couple people write, make comment, to let me know that they’re in good health.– but they’re still mocking. I shake my head a little bit., and I think – you don’t know what you’re saying. You don’t know what you’re messing with.

    So I’m going to say the same thing I said back then, except stronger now, that those individuals who do those kinds of things. Those are the ones who God is going to begin working with early on, the mockers, the scorners, those who hate God. They’re the ones who are going to lose out on what God is offering. But not only that, as an example of certain things, because God is going to bring an end to this age, and because of the job he’s going to do even through me, that I certainly call upon those individuals to begin having those very problems I mentioned earlier on. To die from within. And not slowly now – speedily.

    And there’s only one hope that you have, and that is repentance, and to place yourself at the mercy seat of God. You know when things begin to happen to people, and things they go through — that’s what all must do. When different things come on this earth. You know if people will go before God and ask for God’s mercy, that is your hope. It doesn’t mean that God’s going to answer you. It depends on your spirit and your attitude. And I’m speaking to people who are not a part of the church, but people who like to listen from time to time, and like to mock and make fun. Well your time is up now.

    And God will reveal things to you in a harsh way, because of your spirit and because of your attitude. And far greater things than these are going to begin happening. But again, it is beginning. …. But unlike April, the job has now begun.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal, the previous comment shows what Ron said would happen to his mockers. That clearly includes me, as I have been mocking him since before the first trumpet blew the first time in 2008.

    What does the fact that I am still alive, 15 months after the last time he issued a death curse on me, what does my continued existence say about Ron’s validity as an End-Time Witness?

  • Mal says:

    Aggie,

    Jesus Himself directed us to show love to all (neighbour Matt 22:39 and enemies Matt 5:44).

    Jesus Himself said He was ‘the way, the truth and the life’.

    So I can’t see how it is a self contradicting statement, unless you don’t accept the words of Jesus.

    I also doubt that RW would dispute that Jesus said those words.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mal, you and I were posting comments at the same time. I found your Matt 5:44 quote quite ironic given the content of my quotes of what Weinland said about me and others back in 2008.

    So again what does my continued existence and Dill Weed’s continued existence say about the validity of Ron’s claims?

  • Mal says:

    Mike

    What can I say ? The fact that you and others who have mocked RW are still alive and kicking substantially weakens his case. One more ‘thunder’ that has not come to pass.

    Regarding Jesus’ words in Matt 5:44, on the face of it, it is very difficult to see how RW could possibly be ‘loving his enemies’. I can’t answer for RW, I can only surmise how he might answer.

    He might say that ‘love’ includes being truthful and honest. For example, Jesus was very forthright with the Pharisees, calling them a ‘brood of vipers’. He was very forthright with the money changers in the temple.
    Jesus didn’t shy away from ‘calling a spade a spade’.

    RW’s ‘truth and honesty’ would of course be from his perspective which, if he is deceived, would be totally false.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    When Jesus was being killed, he said forgive them father, for they know not what they do.

    When someone teases Ronnie, they get a death curse. If Ron were true, you could say that us mockers do not know what we do (because God hasn’t let us ‘see’).

    Worlds apart in attitude right there.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Just pondering about the author of confusion thing…… can you get any more confusion than a black book called the Bible, with thousands of different ‘interpretations’ resulting in wars, murders, mental anguish etc??

    Mal argues that ALL misunderstanding is due to the individual not understanding, not seeing.

    Well, OK… then it comes down to each individual believing they are following the ‘truth’ at any given time based on THEIR understanding. Problem is, again, that it comes down to ones own interpretation.

    Fat lot of good that does.

    Ron’s ‘church’ is just another ‘interpretation’ – nothing backed up by any action from ‘God’, even though specifically requested by Ron. He is no different therefore, to ANYONE else, or any other religion out there.

    God is a complete mystery – and the Bible is a mass of confusion. If it were not, there would indeed be a single, solid ‘Church’ – instead their are factions, fables, wars, killing in the name of God, thieves and liars.

    I now, too, have my own interpretation of God and the meaning of life – I believe there is a God, that he made us. The rest? Who knows…. maybe I will never know, and that, now, finally, is cool with me.

  • Mal says:

    Kirrily,

    “God is a complete mystery – and the Bible is a mass of confusion. If it were not, there would indeed be a single, solid ‘Church’ – instead their are factions, fables, wars, killing in the name of God, thieves and liars.”

    I do agree with you that the Bible as a whole is not an easy book. I have found that confusing passages are helped by prayer.

    One reason Jesus Christ came was to take away the mystery about God. Jesus Christ is the human face of the one true God. Jesus Christ’s words and actions are those of God. Did Jesus promote factions, fables, wars, killing in the name of God ? Did he sympathize with thieves and liars ?
    Those things all come about because fallen mankind does not follow His words and actions.

    I find that the best place to start with the Bible is to look at Jesus Christ – He is the truth about the character of God.

  • Aggie says:

    “I also doubt that RW would dispute that Jesus said those words.”

    Which means you did not read 2005 FoT summary of Weinland’s disputing that very thing, which I linked.

    Weinland, and other PKG members, do not believe in the deification of the christological figure; he was a prophet, yes, but a fully-human prophet, albeit born to a virgin. In Armstrongist theology, the Holy Spirit is the “breath” or force, an elemental power, of God, that was present at the beginning creation, as the Logos; Worldwide used to teach that this was the Christ, before the preacher named Jesus was baptized, and became “God’s only-begotten son”. Weinland has departed from this theology.

    Weinland now insists that, even after baptism, Jesus Christ only had the same Holy Spirit any PKG member does after baptism (and, as noted above, other Worldwide members who were baptized before the apostasy). This is an extension of Armstrong’s “god family doctrine”, which he basically lifted whole-cloth from the Mormons. This is why you will hear Christ referred to as “our older brother Jesus Christ” in opening/closing prayers, during the sermons.

    If you’re really as Christian as you claim to be, how can you reconcile the ingrained Christian idea of the infallible, deified Christ, with the PKG doctrine that he was only some preacher from Galilee, who became holy after being baptized, and, even after the end of the world, will be just as human as every other PKG member (Or the members of whichever splinter’s apocalypse ends up being true — there are over 700 variants now!), who will be the Old Testament Overlords of the rest of the world, which will be presented the black-and-white options of 1. Live by “God’s laws” (a slimmed-down and very cherry-picked version of the Old Testament) or 2. Face a long walk off a short plank into the eternal oblivion of the Lake of Fire.

    I know option 2 is the one I will be choosing.

  • Aggie says:

    “Jesus Christ is the human face of the one true God. Jesus Christ’s words and actions are those of God. … I find that the best place to start with the Bible is to look at Jesus Christ – He is the truth about the character of God.”

    Mal, you still don’t get it, do you? Church of God-Preparing for the Kingdom of God Witnesses, elders, and members, openly reject your statements above. Even in Worldwide’s day, your very-typically Christian attitude above, would be mocked and ridiculed, as “mistaking the messenger for the message” which was why the apostasy into paganism and the idol-worship of the sun-deity by falsely-so-called Christians, was openly rejected by those of us who left the church. You can’t understand this, because you’ve still got a lifetime of being steeped in mainstream Christianity’s blinkers on; and seemingly, nothing I can say to you, will convince you otherwise; but let me tell you this, as one who was born and raised in Armstrongism, as one who was a member of God’s True Church (the only “true church”, not these splinters and split-offs and other groups that make a mockery of the teachings now), your attitude is anti-thetical to the understanding of deity that Worldwide Church of God members had, and that PKG members have.

    So, even if you DID want to start paying 10% of your net income to the church, and get baptized, to save your butt from the non-events of the Third Failed Timeline (because you just know the third timeline is going to fail, exactly like the first two timelines failed), unless you’re willing to abandon your pagan protestations above, the PKG wouldn’t even have you!

    But you’re just like the other armchair quarterbacks of Weinland’s Multiple Apocalypses out there; you don’t give a shit for the members that ARE trapped in PKG and HAVE given up tens of thousands of dollars (even hundreds of thousands) to Weinland, and who ARE stocking up end-of-the-world supplies (and have been doing so for five years now), and who ARE destroying their families, and losing their jobs; you’re not at risk of ANY of the psychological, physical, and financial horror that is the sole existence of being a member in ANY Church of God; so you feel you can protest with these devil’s-advocate inanities with impunity, and maybe (just maybe), if Weinland’s apocalypse does come true this time (Third time’s the charm!), Weinland’s god will grant you some favour. You’ve got another think coming, Mal, because if that happens? You’ll burn with the rest of us.

    Stop defending a group you cannot even begin to understand, that wouldn’t even have you in the first place, Mal.

  • Aggie says:

    And my thanks to the invisible editor for cleaning up my bad HTML. 😉

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    As an X Member of PKG (and Garners splinter before that) – I can back up everything Aggie has stated above.

  • jack635 says:

    Kirrily,
    I always thought Teddy was made for television. If he had left the “church” altogether, he could have made a good career for himself as a news anchor or even sixty minutes. But now he’s in the cold cold ground. The end result of both father and son is death. Funny how HWA’s own son was the first splinter. And now the whole thing is still crumbling and emanating dust.

  • Aggie says:

    LOL Garner Ted…by the time I was growing up in the church, he was the next best thing to the Anti-Christ, as far as church leadership was concerned! 😀

  • Aggie says:

    Also, in re: splinters, I’ll never forget the sermon that was preached against Flurry’s sect, shortly after he broke away in the early ’90s: We were told that we were ONLY to have agape (brotherly love) for other members of Worldwide; we were explicitly instructed that we could not have agape for those who had fallen away, or who were now considered “outside the protection of the church”. Really, when you think about it logically, ALL of the splinters are “outside the protection of the church”, and the church itself has fallen into pagan apostasy, and no longer abides by the teachings it once preached.

    Milieu control much?

  • Mal says:

    Hi Aggie,

    Apologies. On re-reading my post (shown below), I can see that it is open to misunderstanding.

    “Jesus Christ is the human face of the one true God. Jesus Christ’s words and actions are those of God. … I find that the best place to start with the Bible is to look at Jesus Christ – He is the truth about the character of God.”

    What I meant was that the words and actions of Jesus Christ are exactly in-line with God the Father.

    Jesus Christ was begotten by God, born of a virgin through God’s Holy Spirit, and so was equipped with the very mind of God. Consequently, Jesus was able to say “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father” (John 14:9) and “The Father and I are one” (John 10:30). Jesus was absolutely at one with God in mind and purpose.

    It is not clear to me at all from Scripture that Jesus Christ is a one third part of a triune God. In fact, 1John 4:12 says, “No man has seen God at any time”.

    Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected, the first to be glorified, the firstborn among many brothers. Consequently, Jesus Christ fulfilled the Israelite Festival of Firstfruits, because He was the first of many to come. As Romans 8:29 tells us: “because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers”.

    Also, I don’t think the Scriptures (original Greek) are clear at all that God’s Holy Spirit is an actual ‘person’, a third part of a triune God. It makes more sense to me that the Holy Spirit is the very power and mind of God the Father.

    For what it’s worth, I hope this clarifies a little what I meant in my post and my thoughts on the ‘trinity’.

  • Aggie says:

    “Jesus Christ was begotten by God, born of a virgin through God’s Holy Spirit, and so was equipped with the very mind of God. Consequently, Jesus was able to say “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father” (John 14:9) and “The Father and I are one” (John 10:30). Jesus was absolutely at one with God in mind and purpose.”

    And you have not read ANY of my posts at all. The Church of God groups, particularly Weinland’s group, disagrees with this. So, if you really, truly, do believe that? Weinland’s god is going to kick you to the curb, come the Apocalypse, if Weinland’s Apocalypse actually comes to pass “exactly as [he’s] said it would” — third time’s the charm, eh?

    “Also, I don’t think the Scriptures (original Greek) are clear at all that God’s Holy Spirit is an actual ‘person’, a third part of a triune God. It makes more sense to me that the Holy Spirit is the very power and mind of God the Father.”

    This is consistent with Church of God teachings. Hey, if you’re a binitarian (that’s what your above assertions are called, theologically speaking), more “power” (heh heh) to you! I never could wrap my head around the trinitarian nonsense, anyway. Thing is, Weinland’s group has rejected this completely. They believe ONLY in the divinity of God-the-father-Yahweh-Elohim, through some variant of vaguely Messianic Jewish Sacred Namism that I haven’t quite figured out yet (although you will hear Weinland excoriate the Sacred Namists quite heavily, in his sermons, likely because so many of them were initially attracted to the PKG by the Google Adwords, in late 2007 – early 2008).

    I hope I’ve been clear in explaining to you, that your theological beliefs are clearly in opposition to Weinland’s, and his group’s. I would urge you to read the link I posted above, to the Feast report of a former PKG member, who was there when Weinland first unveiled his unitarian doctrine.

    Still interested in the PKG?

  • William says:

    “And you have not read ANY of my posts at all. The Church of God groups, particularly Weinland’s group, disagrees with this. So, if you really, truly, do believe that? Weinland’s god is going to kick you to the curb, come the Apocalypse, if Weinland’s Apocalypse actually comes to pass “exactly as [he’s] said it would” — third time’s the charm, eh?”

    What do they disagree with?

    “This is consistent with Church of God teachings. Hey, if you’re a binitarian (that’s what your above assertions are called, theologically speaking), more “power” (heh heh) to you! I never could wrap my head around the trinitarian nonsense, anyway. Thing is, Weinland’s group has rejected this completely. They believe ONLY in the divinity of God-the-father-Yahweh-Elohim, through some variant of vaguely Messianic Jewish Sacred Namism that I haven’t quite figured out yet (although you will hear Weinland excoriate the Sacred Namists quite heavily, in his sermons, likely because so many of them were initially attracted to the PKG by the Google Adwords, in late 2007 – early 2008).”

    I don’t think think that any of the scriptures Mal posted or what He said about them points to Binitarian. Also from what I have read from Ronald Weinlands writtings He doesn’t believe that only God the Father is divinity, but that the Father is the only true God who has always existed. Someone being divine does not mean that they are God. And while there are things that are wrong with CoG-PKG, their unitarian position agrees with the scriptures, though some of the explanations given in the 2005 FoT sersoms seen to be wrong.

  • Aggie says:

    “What do they disagree with?”

    The deification of Jesus.

    “Someone being divine does not mean that they are God. And while there are things that are wrong with CoG-PKG, their unitarian position agrees with the scriptures, though some of the explanations given in the 2005 FoT sersoms seen to be wrong.”

    The Bible is an interesting book, William, as Mike has pointed out often enough: It can be made to say anything you want it to. (And has been, for three thousand years.) Mal is essentially referring to the same scriptures long-used by Armstrongist groups to promote binitarianism; you might also look up Arius or semi-Arianism (I’m not going to bother linking anything if no one’s going to read it).

    Interesting you should say that “some of the explanations in the 2005 FoT sermons seem to be wrong”. If Weinland is an ordained Witness/Prophet/Elijah/Apostle, he can’t be. Not ever. Not even once. Never mind twice! But now he’s wrong THREE TIMES?

    And for the record, I find unitarianism as incomprehensible as trinitarianism. Oh, sure, they’re both “in the Bible” (so is binitarianism), but that doesn’t make any one of those theologies any more true than the other.

  • Aggie says:

    I know none of the “true believers” are going to click this link, but I highly recommend reading the articles (especially the older ones, dealing with the changes) over at The Painful Truth. Anyone with half of a functioning brain cell will see that the church itself was corrupt from the inside out (and still is).

  • William says:

    “The deification of Jesus.”

    I don’t they disagree with the deification of Jesus. Deification does not mean being God. CoG-PKG teaching that Jesus was a man and not God who became a man would not mean that they do think Jesus is divine as being divine does not mean that a person is God.

    “The Bible is an interesting book, William, as Mike has pointed out often enough: It can be made to say anything you want it to. (And has been, for three thousand years.) Mal is essentially referring to the same scriptures long-used by Armstrongist groups to promote binitarianism; you might also look up Arius or semi-Arianism (I’m not going to bother linking anything if no one’s going to read it).”

    Well I think it is pretty clear on major issue like who is God, who Jesus is, what happens when a person dies and salvation. The why people can make it say anything is by reading ideas into it and ignoring the context and culture od the time. As in the case of the scripture Mal quoted which WoG used to prove Jesus is God (the same that are used to prove the trinity or onesness doctrine) they have ideas read into them. If we looked at scripture there is no scripture that plainly says “Jesus is God who became man, Jesus was God of the Old Covenant, You must believe that Jesus is God who became man, God is a made up of God he Father and Jesus, Jesus preexisted as God before His Human birth or the God of our Fathers became a man.

    If any of these things was stated in scripture then you could say that it plainly teaches that Jesus is God and the Binitarian doctrine has scriptural support (or the trinity or oneness) yet it doesn’t. So people read things into scriptures to support their ideas, like what happen with the scriptures Mal posted. None of them say any of the things I posted above.

    Yet when we see simple scriptures that clearly and plainly say who Jesus is, we see time and time again that it says He was a man, who was dies and was resurrected by God, is the Son of God, the Messiah and Saviour. We see this clearly said many times in Acts yet they never once say that Jesus is God who became man.

    Also I have looked up Arius, semi-Arianism , the trinity, onceness, unitarianism adoptionism and other views abpout Jesus and God.

    “Interesting you should say that “some of the explanations in the 2005 FoT sermons seem to be wrong”. If Weinland is an ordained Witness/Prophet/Elijah/Apostle, he can’t be. Not ever. Not even once. Never mind twice! But now he’s wrong THREE TIMES?”

    Well it defends what you mean wrong about. By scriptural standards if He claimed He is a prophet and that God gave Him or told Him that “so so will happen” and it doesn’t, it would make Him a false prophet. If He gave sonthing wrong about who God is or who how God did things then this would not make Him false as the scriptures never tell us a prophet must know all things about God.

    So going by the scriptural definition of a prophet and the standards of a true prophet I would have to say that Ronald Winland isn’t one.

  • Mal says:

    Aggie,

    Regarding my last post.

    If I’ve removed Jesus and the Holy Spirit from the ‘trinity’, then by my logic that leaves me as ‘unitarian’ not ‘binitarian’. Without question I believe Jesus is divine, but as William’s post said: “Someone being divine does not mean that they are God”.

    By the way, I did read your web link relating to PKG Feast of Trumpets 2005.

    I don’t think it is possible to completely and categorically say Ron Weinland is wrong in stating that Jesus Christ did not pre-date His birth.

    Quoting from William’s post again, I also do not find any of the following clearly stated in Scripture:

    “Jesus is God who became man, Jesus was God of the Old Covenant, You must believe that Jesus is God who became man, God is made up of God the Father and Jesus, Jesus pre-existed as God before His Human birth or the God of our Fathers became a man”.

    For sure, assumptions have been made such as:

    (John 1:1) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

    (John 1:14) “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”.

    So most of Christianity says ‘Ah yes, that must mean Jesus was the Word in John 1:1, and so Jesus pre-existed.’ But does it definitely mean that? Yes, God’s Word was made flesh in Jesus Christ, but does it necessarily mean that Jesus Christ was literally ‘the Word’ in John 1:1?

    Clearly, there are many definite references to Christ in the Old Testament, but I see those as prophetic of the Christ to come.

    I would suggest there is room to question what the majority of Christianity assumes about Christ pre-dating His birth, and that it cannot be ruled out that RW is correct.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I think the discussion is getting a bit preachy, so I’m letting Mal have the last word here — I am locking further comments to this post.

    You all are welcome to discuss the origin of Christ doctrine at another location, let me suggest this relevant post on As Bereans Did.