It’s Hot in Here

Yesterday False Prophet Ronald Weinland was in Orlando delivering another sermon mostly devoid of his false prophecy.  The venue was saving money on air conditioning making Ronnie jacketless after awhile.

Ron read from the recent post on his blog about Quarantines.  He starts with the somewhat reasonable, and soon segues to:

The second and more serious concern is that this strain could mutate into an extremely deadly strain and do so very quickly. The potential for this is great, and with the time we live in it is likely. Even if this does not occur, a completely new strain will emerge that will prove to be much more fatal.

And continues to

Compulsory vaccinations: Along with pandemics there is the likelihood of some governments enforcing compulsory vaccinations.

I doubt that compulsory vaccination will occur should the H1N1 virus mutate to a more deadly form.  It takes time for vaccines to be developed.  I rather think that there would be a shortage of vaccines for those who would want them — in which case the military will not be rounding up people at bayonet-point for forced immunizations.

During the sermon, Weinland accused his critics of looking for things to take out of context.  The fact is, I don’t have to take his statements out of context to find contradictions.  Unless the context he’s talking about is hie preference is that only his latest statements should be considered and any prior statement on the topic is “out of context”.

For example, his defenders will point out the weasel words such as “may” in Weinland’s quarantine post in the paragraphs just prior to the part I quoted.  However, I’ve noted that people prone to following false prophecies ignore the weasel words and are only made aware of them after the prophecy fails.  And if the prophecy comes true, then the weasel words are not needed. Herbert Armstrong was adroit at the use of weasel words.  In any case, it would be a stretch to pull the weasel words into the paragraph I quoted.

The fact is that Weinland is not a virologist, and has no idea whether or not a “completely new strain will emerge.”  And neither do I.  For either of us to make a firm prediction on the matter is … well, presumptuous.

In the comments section of my previous post, the topic of whether or not Weinland controls his members’ communication. I can point out a definite example.  At the Feast of Tabernacles in October 2005 held in Nashville, Weinland imposed his new doctrine on the origin of Christ upon a following which at that time largely comprised of people from a WCG background who believed that Christ existed before being born to Mary.  In his October 19, 2005 sermon (at 21 minutes in the version downloaded from the PKG website) Weinland stated:

Because what will not be allowed in this body, in this church, by God — and he works through his ministry — will be any division.  Will be anything that speaks against these truths.  NOT ONE WORD!  For if that one word comes out it is against God Almighty, and he will not take it lightly.  And I would not want to be in your shoes.  For you will have things of the wrath of God upon you and your life.  Not a small thing, is it? You will most definitely be encouraged to make a rapid exit from this fellowshipNOT ONE WORD!  So any of you who hear one word against God, stand your ground and be firm and tell them “You should leave.  Get behind me.”  …. You’ve never heard anything in this period of time, in the last ten years stated quite as strong brethren.  That’s how important this is before God.  And where we’re headed next, and where we’re going, and what God is doing.  For you’re going to hear far greater things as time goes on.  [And it was exactly one month later that Weinland kinda-sorta announced that he was one of the Two Witnesses. And less than two months later that he made it totally clear.]

It is quite clear that Weinland controls the communications of his members.  One of the aspects of COG-PKG defining it as a cult.

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73 Comments

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I have always found it funny, that God’s most formidable prophet of all time, would even look to see what his ‘critics’ (us sick, twisted, evil mockers) have to say about him.

    Why does he even care?

    He says we don’t have a life – well what about him? Shouldn’t he be practising with his witness powers? Maybe that is why they are not working – he is too busy reading alllllll these blogs! Maybe these blogs are effecting his faith to the point where his witness powers are not working. Perhaps all he has managed so far is a Tsuami in the bath tub (dropping his rubber duck (the TRUE second witness) whilst sipping his vodka and lime, causing widespread water damage to the bathmat, with bath bubbles stinging his eyes).

    I can just see it now – Laura and Ron in their lounge room “OK Laura, close the windows – let’s see if I can breathe out some fire to light the fireplace. 1, 2, 3 *puff puff cough cough*. D’oh!! I just can’t get it!! Mmmmmm, maybe I misunderstood God about the timing…….again. Maybe our powers will only work if we hold hands……Close your eyes Laura!! ………Ok, now open them….look deep into my eyes, deeper………Where’s my rubber duckie?”. Maybe he should watch Harry Potter for some tips…..

    Hi Ron!! 🙂 Hope you enjoy my posts!! Herbie would be SO PROUD of you!! You only have a couple of hundred more failed prophecies to go before you equal your end time Apostle (who thought he was a prophet).

    You should start posting here Ron – it would be fun! You could explain a few things, perhaps enlighten us poor blind ones. Light our lives with your power, and let God reveal who he is working through, by ensuring that EVERYTHING you have stated coming to pass EXACTLY as you have stated. (Well, OK… from NOW!!……….ok,……NOW!!……..ok, well from 1st August?…..Or after times……..or time……..?? Or part of times time divided by 2 being 50% or 180 degrees from the first timeline? Maybe the 1/2 hour of silence is 1 year and not 30 days? Maybe the count should be backwards/forwards to the 1335 – blessed are those who WAIT? (Wait for another timeline?). Who is the author of confusion again??????

    You could post some new prophecies here! Practice with your witness powers on us until you get much better/stronger/confident in using your powers!

    I was watching Bewitched yesterday, and thought of you – have you considered wiggling your nose like Samantha? What about a broomstick? Perhaps there is code written in Revelation which actually describe the spells/incantations to ignite your witness powers that have escaped your attention? Perhaps you were meant to say a few words when the first trumpet blew? Or during the 45-90 days of increasing destructive power following the first trumpet? (Woops, I forgot – second timeline 45-90 days went out the window. Sorry Ron, it’s hard to remember all the differences between the 2 timelines sometimes).

    Just trying to help out 😉

    Ron, you are SUCH a joke. But a dangerous one, therefore nothing about you is funny – in any way shape or form.

    You Ron, are a disgrace – a fraud. You yourself are nothing, but what you do, by what you have done in NOT keeping your word is dangerous.

    I would not want to be in your shoes Ron, not in a million years. I actually feel sorry for you – I really do. Never before have I witnessed (‘cuse the pun) the works of such a sick individual.

    The shame you must feel, for TRULY believing you were God’s Final Witness – then when nothing came to pass, the agony, fear and betrayal you would have felt. Questioned yourself, your whole life, your whole purpose – your very relationship with God. The torture in these things must be very close to the surface of your mind – and you manage to keep pushing it down, and stubbornly make claim to something you have no right to. Again, I wonder what the effect you will have on the REAL witnesses when THEY turn up? Fortunately, not a great deal I think – as you really have not claimed too many people – no one really knows about you Ron. You are nothing, yet to the few you have infected, a disease that eats away at a person. The same disease that is eating away at you Ron. The cure for this disease is when you admit you are wrong, die, or 2012 comes and goes (unless you do in fact bring in a third timeline).

    You have a great imagination – you should have written a script instead – 2008 God’s Final Witness would have made a great movie!! It’s not too late, you could change the title to 2012 and go into competition with the other 2012 movie!!

    Actually, your version could be a cartoon. Homer Simpson would play you perfectly!

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I think that Kirrily just outdid both me and the previous champion mocker Dill Weed. Kirrily, if Ron’s death curse ever sputters to a start, you’ll be the first to go 😉

    WO, on the other thread you wrote “To me what people brand a cult is only a cult when it starts isolating people, banning communication as an example.” Perhaps you’ll roll out your typical apologetic which is that whatever Ron does is OK, the ends justify the means, etc. Basically what he said was “believe or leave, or at least keep your mouth shut”.

    Perhaps we’ll hear from some people who were actually there at the 2005 Feast of Tabernacles. Observer, were you there?

  • Observer says:

    I was not there. What is being discussed here is a major doctrinal change with regard to the oneness of God. It was essential to draw a line. Either you believe it or you don’t. If you don’t, and you are willing to be quiet about it until God clearly shows you one way or the other … fine. It is never all right to sow discord among the brethren. If you do not agree, go somewhere where you can be in agreement. It is a serious matter to turn a brother away from the Truth.

  • Observer says:

    WO: I understand that you were saying that God didn’t die for anyone. You are right. Jesus died for us all to reconcile us to God. God is eternal and can’t die. (who would resurrect Him?) I should have realized what you were saying. I am sorry. You are right that often times in traditional Christianity God, Jesus, the Lord, etc are interchanged to the point of total confusion and that is why Mark and Todd thought you were denying the sacrifice of Christ. I wasn’t sure where you were going with it but I should have known. 🙂

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I would point out that it was Ron who was sowing discord. Those with a WCG background who had an opinion on the origin of Christ did not believe this doctrine to start.

    Whatever your justification, it is clear that Ron controlled the communications of his members.

    Aggie put up a post last year with a report from someone who was there. Talking about the reaction of the members:

    “As the Feast continued, we [were] dismayed and saddened by what we witnessed in the brethren around us. At first there was general shock and surprise as everyone reacted to the new “understanding.” Very few would actually talk about their thoughts about the matter except to say that they were fervently “praying for understanding” and “praying for enlightenment.” There was a bit of unsettlement as these “entranced” members seemed to be struggling with accepting the new doctrine. It was almost as if some of them “woke up” a bit ~ but it was short-lived. As the days of the Feast passed, the majority breathed a collective sigh of relief as they GOT IT and settled back into their blind stupors.”

  • Dill Weed says:

    Gosh, I wonder how Kirrily really feels? : D

    I was cringing for Ron as I read that stinging rebuke! (Holds his mocker hat humbly in his hands. Shuffles feet and fidgets.)

    Kirrily also raises the issue that interests me: The affect of failed prophecy on Ron.

    Just how will he cope? How does a Witness of Revelation explain mistaking the start of their ministry? How to explain the failure of the specific prophecies that have been made while time tick tocks by?

    Ron is feeling greater and greater pressure as time passes. There is just no way out of this.

    I am God’s prophet and Witness, just not yet. I was presumptuous, but I am still God’s prophet!

    But Ron, you spoke to us in the name of God. You prophecied in God’s name. We couldn’t understand unless God revealed it to us and he did and we did understand, but it wasn’t right? And, it wasn’t what you told us it was?

    How could we believe you when you tell us that, now for real this time, your ministry has started? How?

    How could God have revealed to you that the last 3 1/2 years actually starts…. and this was a test?

    Dill Weed

  • DRMR says:

    “The potential for this is great, and with the time we live in it is likely. Even if this does not occur, a completely new strain will emerge that will prove to be much more fatal.”

    As everybody knows (except some) this is more of the same game. Ron throws out these prophetic “seeds”, and if one happens to germinate, that is, if something should happen that is even slightly, remotely, similiar, in any way to what he said, Oh Boy! , he’ll be on that like white on rice, and that will be absolute proof that God is speaking through him.

    But if nothing of what he says materializes, nothing will be said about it ……….. and it’s allowed to just fade away …………

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Kirrily, Mike’s right. You have indeed surpassed his mocking along with Dill’s! Okay so you now think Armstrong was a false prophet even though he didn’t even claim to be a prophet in the first place? Does this mean you no longer believe what you stated several times before, that you believe what you have learned from Ron and believe it all except that he is the second witness? Correct me wrong but I think your last comment where you stated Ron is catching up to Armstrong in failed prophesies is an official exit from everything Armstrong taught. Realize that God doesn’t work through liars to reveal the truth. Realize that Armstrong never set dates. There is a difference from an oppinion and setting dates. I have noticed you changing and I’m not talking about mocking. I’m talking about the fact that you no longer seam to believe what you believed after feeling Ron was wrong. One random fact before I go. When I felt Ron was false from early January to June, I still believed that what Armstrong had taught along with the oneness of God was what the Bible taught. I knew that this is what Christianity was and for the rest of my life would have continued to have great respect for anyone following it even if I didn’t fully believe it. I knew that if Ron was a prophet I would find out and repent. As it turns out now, I did. I packed everything I learned in a trunk but I never threw it away and opened it when I realized again how valuable it was, on a spiritual plane.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    WO, understand that whether or not HWA called himself a prophet makes no difference. If I were to take a gun and blow someone’s brains out, the court would not allow me to use as a defense that I had not called myself a murderer. I was around back then, and HWA was a prophet. He claimed to represent God and he prophesied. He did set dates — don’t tell me any differently.

    You said “Realize that God doesn’t work through liars to reveal the truth.” Yet you believe Weinland who promised that he would not revise his prophecies when they failed, who promised that he would stop preaching and that he would resign if nuclear explosions didn’t happen by last July.

    You believe the liar Ron Weinland. And why? Because he watched a report on CNBC that said unemployment was going up and he repeated it. Yet you ignore all his failed prophecies.

  • DRMR says:

    Weinland Observer says:
    July 26, 2009 at 13:32
    “Realize that Armstrong never set dates”.

    Many times Herbert said certain things would happen by a certain year. And they never materialized.

    I call that setting dates. And I realize Weinland followers don’t see it that way.

    Just like the YouTube video. Where Ron spiritualizes, when these “awesome and shocking” events fail to materialize.

    They don’t see that as a failure. They just don’t see it that way.

    That’s what the Flavor-Aide does to you. One just doesn’t see things like they should.

    That Flavor-Aide is powerful stuff.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    True that our comment on a murderer. I have to be honest that there was a time, after I stopped believing Ron for a bit, when I thought Armstrong set 1975 as a date. After reading the article on his commission I understood why his book was titled 1975 In Prophesy. I understood the explanation perfectly and it made sence. As for Ron and why I believe him at first it was because of what I saw happened to the WCG ant realized that the one who knew what happened to it would also know if he was God’s witness. Then, it was indeed the fiftieth truth that convinced me even more so that Ron was a prophet.
    Why is Ron a Prophet? Because he was given the fiftieth truth.
    Why was Ron given the fiftieth truth? Because he was a prophet.
    I remember J posting this several times, and I believe it is true.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    DRMR, saying something could happen, might happen, is likely to happen, isn’t stating that it will happen. I think Armstrong used these kinds of terms quite a bit.

  • J says:

    WO wrote:
    “Why is Ron a Prophet? Because he was given the fiftieth truth.
    Why was Ron given the fiftieth truth? Because he was a prophet.
    I remember J posting this several times, and I believe it is true.”

    You’re right, I did post that. It’s circular reasoning and is a logical fallacy. It’s completely self-reinforcing and requires no proof.

    Here’s another example:

    “I am a millionaire.”
    Why am I a millionaire?
    Because I have a good job.
    Why do I have a good job?
    Because I am a millionaire.
    Why am I a millionaire?….

    See? That’s a circular argument. I might be a millionaire because I have a good job. How would you know one way or another? I only told you, and that’s all the “proof” you had. As for it being circular, does it make sense that I have a good job because I am a millionaire? Absolutely not. Circular reasoning is FALSE LOGIC.

    But, it’s good enough for you, sadly.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I conclude that circular logic makes sence sometimes while not at others. I understand why the millionaire example makes no sence as you did become a millionaire if you have a good job but that becoming a millionaire didn’t give you the job. Here’s another example of when it makes sence.
    Why am I tired and out of energy? Because my body needs sleep.
    Why does my body need sleep? Because I am tired and out of energy.
    J did you take psychology?

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Hi there WO: I had the pleasure (I am not being sarcastic) of dining with Garner Ted Armstrong and his son Mark on 3 occasions (*i know, i know – some of you are gagging right now!*).

    Garner too, was ‘given’ at least one ‘new’ truth concerning Jesus – that he was God in the old testament (ie. burning bush etc) (I can not comment on anything to do with HWA as I have never even heard his voice). I believe that HWA didn’t believe this?? Again, I am not sure – but I am pretty sure GTA said this was a new truth (I wouldn’t know one way or the other).

    Garner told us that his father ‘lost it’ after Loma died in particular, and spoke of how painful it was when he was kicked out by his own Dad. Garner told us that HE wrote most most of the booklets and HWA took credit for it. (I know how I am saying it sounds like sour grapes, but Garner put it a lot differently than how I am putting it here).

    After Garner died (I did truly love Garner so much, out of every minister in my entire life that I have ever known [most of you know by now, there’s been a LOT!] Garner was the warmest, kindest person) – BUT I have found out a lot about GTA in the last few years. But hey guys, you know my nature! I’ll just ignore the bad bits and keep remembering Garner as I knew him! lol!! (Some people call this seeing only the best in people, which is great. Not so great when you end up getting caught up with people like Ron!).

    Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that EVERY ONE OF THESE DAMN COG’S THINK THEY HAVE A NEW TRUTH or whatever. WHO IS RIGHT? WHO IS WRONG? WHO IS GOD WORKING THROUGH??? This very matter was meant to be settled as Ron says, by EVERYTHING coming to pass EXACTLY as Ron said it would. Then we WOULD know who to listen to (Ron) – but that hasn’t happened. Therefore, God HIMSELF has NOT revealed WHO He is working through (at least, not to me).

    So I will wait. I have had ENOUGH of FALSE doctorine. I would rather have NOTHING than learn something false – yet again. I would rather DO nothing – and WAIT until God DOES decide to reveal it. I can not take another journey of something false. I really, really can’t. I am the type to give all of myself, I can’t just give a little. Therefore, it is too painful when it goes pear shaped.

    WO: Given the above, to answer your question – I DON’T KNOW. I have worked my way down to a core of beliefs as such – to keep the commandments. The rest? I’ll have to research (again). I just CAN’T BE BOTHERED right now. But I certainly have NOT thrown them out the window either. They are just sitting there in my mind.

    Have I been changing? During this process, I change every day. So many emotions!

    Dill: I have thought of how this is affecting Ron MANY times.

    All – I mean it when I say I feel sorry for Ron (I do believe he is drinking his own flavour aid).

    Just think – if I am affected in the way that I have been, and I am sure EVERYONE here who has been through a COG and left, similar to me (and often a LOT worse). We feel lost, betrayed, loss of faith, knowledge, where to turn, what to do, loss of trust, a very part of us DIES, is God WITH ME? etc etc etc.

    That would be multiplied by 100 when it comes to Ron. In all seriousness, IF (and that is a BIG IF) Ron does have a concious, and does eventually come to the belief he is WRONG – well, the consequences for his mind could be DIRE.

    People like Wayne too (who I still miss so much – I really liked the ‘sheriff’ [again, I am not being sarcastic – he was very kind, and strict, with me]) – well, I can’t imagine how it will be for him too.

    The mind is powerful though, in justifying one’s self to preserve itself – it’s very STATE.

    I shudder to think what this would do to Ron when he finally admits he is false – but he might NOT EVER admit this (which would keep him sane). We’ll see.

    It’s this very point though, that I can somewhat UNDERSTAND why he has NOT admitted he is false – can you see what this would do to him? I have admitted he is false – and you have all seen what it has done to me (and I was only around for under 2 years!).

    This is why I CAN feel sorry for him – AND MOCK at the same time! After all, I was brave enough to admit I WAS WRONG in following a false prophet – and he can’t admit he was wrong (Pride, but also something MUCH deeper – it would mean that God is NOT with him – ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch x 1,000,000,000,000,000,000). That he NEVER was GIVEN anything. That he made it all up somehow etc etc. Oh how that would TORTURE you, condemn you, drive you insane.

    You see, he REALLY needs to think about the bigger picture here. How this is affecting PEOPLE. What this could be doing to the TRUE ministry (if there is one). You would think he would be scared of God too (again, the mind is very powerful when it comes to self preservation).

    He is only focused on himself though – that is clear. But given all the above, I really can FULLY understand it.

    I am good at seeing both sides of things – that is why on the one hand I can truly feel sorry for him. Then I can also on the other hand mock him stupid!

    That’s why I can feel protective of WO and want to give him a hug, and at the same time roll my eyes at what WO is saying!! I can SEE both sides, because I KNOW both sides myself.

    Hope that makes sense – I have just woken up.

    We have mice in the house – they have gotten into all my ‘tribulation’ food which we have just spent the weekend throwing out (should’ve started eating it earlier – or given it away. Ended up going to the mice except for canned stuff). I had my 3 months supply (along with shampoo, toilet paper, soap, pain killers, water supply etc etc) 🙂 Well, it was heaven for the mice anyway 🙂

  • DRMR says:

    Weinland Observer says:
    July 26, 2009 at 15:19
    “DRMR, saying something could happen, might happen, is likely to happen, isn’t stating that it will happen. I think Armstrong used these kinds of terms quite a bit.”

    Come on, WO, you’re playing with me.

    Herberts’ prophecies are documented on several websites. And it’s plain to see that he said certain things would definitely happen by a certain year. There was no might, could, or likely about it.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Kirrily, your post was clear and I understood it. You can’t play Russian Roulette with what you feel God is giving you though. This goes for everyone including Ron. Again, pretending for a second Ron is false, what can he do but pray to God and look to him? What can anyone else do? To worry about this not working out could drive someone insane. As for Ron if he were false, he would do something else with his life as he has varying experience and would be in a COG-PKG with all the truth other than the prophesied truths. I personally wouldn’t delve in to another cog and would think the truth would come if COG had it. Honestly, I would leave everything other than the golden rule and praying to God. It’s good you have the commandments in your mind and everything in a trunk in a way as I did. As for throwing out tribulation food isn’t that something you should have anyway because of other threats that you see? Surely you believe in a coming world war or depression? In fact I know you do as you recently posted about it.

    DRMR, I would like to see some of those prophesies if you can find them.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I had to throw the stuff out, as the mice had gotten into it (remember, I bought most of all this in January-March 2008 as the first trumpet was to be blown on 17 April, 2008 (the first time around anyway). Most of it was VERY stale. Still have the canned stuff though, and they didn’t get into the rice – have 6 bags of the stuff 🙂

    “You can’t play Russian Roulette with what you feel God is giving you though”. That is my point – I THOUGHT God had given me LOTS of things (incl. Ron’s ‘truths’) and Ron turned out to be FALSE (no lie is of the truth).

    Ergo – how can I TRUST what I THINK God is giving me? Especially when the thing I THOUGHT God was ‘giving’ me didn’t come to pass?

    Again WO: this is something that you perhaps have knowledge of, but you don’t understand (I know you think you do).

    “As for Ron if he were false, he would do something else with his life as he has varying experience and would be in a COG-PKG with all the truth other than the prophesied truths.”

    If could do this, well it would just prove he has no concious whatsoever – which is very plausible. If he does care though, about what he is done, I do believe it would drive him to a VERY DARK place.

  • DRMR says:

    Weinland Observer says:
    July 26, 2009 at 17:36
    “DRMR, I would like to see some of those prophesies if you can find them.”

    WO, I wanted to say in my last comment, “Don’t make me show you” because I almost (I say almost) KNEW you would ask it.

    But something first. You’re right, Herbert did, a lot of times, say “could happen, might happen, is likely to happen”.

    In order to stay on topic:
    Just like Mike DDTFA said in the main commentary on this topic, “weasle words”. Always leave a way out. But if something DID, by chance, happen, even remotely resembling what was “prophesied”, OH Yeah!, you’d probably never hear the end of it.
    But the funny thing is, the times when HWA, and Ron, felt brave enough to stick their neck out , and dispense with the “weasel words”, they turned out WRONG.

    But, to answer your question, check this out:

    “February, 1967 Plain Truth, p. 47

    The ‘Day of the Eternal’—a time foretold in more than thirty prophecies—is going to strike between 5 and 10 years from now! You will know, then, how REAL it is. You will wish, then, you had heeded. I am not writing foolishly, but very soberly, ON AUTHORITY of the living Christ!” Those are Herbert’s words.

    Let me point out: ON AUTHORITY of the LIVING CHRIST! IS (he said IS) going to strike between 5 and 10 years from now!

    And, as you can see, from February of 1967.

    What more needs to be said ?

  • xHWA says:

    Good one, DRMR. I’ll add that to my list!

  • DRMR says:

    WO,

    One more thing. Just so I’m not misunderstood. Through my whole last comment, I’m smiling at ya, buddy! 🙂

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Oh, and I’d just like to add, and then I will drop it: I am not angry, hateful, bitter, spiteful, etcetera, and xHWA, I tried to address my (admittedly ranting) comment with respect. I regret that you did not choose to return the favour. However, I see that soul-sucking sociopath masquerading as a self-made minister, otherwise known as Bill Hohmann, has managed to weasel himself back into the good graces of As Bereans Did, which more than likely explains your “sea change” towards non-believers.

    My comment was a rant, but it was a generalized rant against the confusion and illogic of the theology, which directly leads to confusing and illogical behaviour on the part of its followers. Such as you saying I am hateful, spiteful, angry, etcetera, just because I don’t believe in your god.

    I am not hateful. I have MORE compassion for others, since I exited the church, than I ever did when I was in. I am not angry. Repeat: I am not angry. Non-belief is not anger, nor is it any kind of “reaction”: It is simply non-belief.

    I choose not to create my gods, for I wish to control my own desires, decisions, and destiny. If that makes me “hateful” or “angry” in the mind of a Christian, well then, so be it. Please be assured that I am none of those things, and most especially I am not in any kind of “pain” because I don’t happen to believe in your theology.

    I simply don’t believe in your theology, or your god. I believe men created god and gods and “God” (and the christological figure right along with it), not the other way around. “It would be better,” as the Gospel of Philip instructs, “for the gods to worship men!”

    As for WO, Weinland Observer: I think you should start re-reading your copy of the Koran. Er, if you have a copy, that is. I’m assuming you do, since you keep bringing it up. Did you convert to Muslim faith before you found the church? What was your parents’ reaction to that?

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “I still believed that what Armstrong had taught along with the oneness of God”

    But Armstrong didn’t teach this, WO, that was the whole point! Weinland changed the Armstrongist doctrine to suit his own needs in 2005! Did you read any of that quote at all? We were binitarians, and the Holy Spirit was “ruach hakodesh”, the Old Testament idea of “breath”, “force” or “wind”, NOT “a third person” (What’s it’s name, Bob?). We were NOT unitarians, NOT by a long shot. Important to remember that, should you consider dropping Weinland, but staying with Armstrongism.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Honestly, I would leave everything other than the golden rule and praying to God. “

    Why don’t you do that now, WO? Why not let prophecy work itself out (true or false, one way or the other), and deal with it when it DOES come true; not before and before and before? (You just know Weinland’s gearing up for Timeline 3: I predict it’ll hit during this much-vaunted LGD sermon he’s pooching on about lately.)

    As for Kirrily, re: Weinland’s mental state: I’ve said it before, I’ll said it again: Weinland’s not insane. He’s crazy, all right, crazy like a fox. HE’S ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY. The two witlesses need a pension cheque (that they gave up when Weinland borked the deal with first UCG, and then COG-Toledo), and I predict you’re not going to hear a single prophecy leave the Witless’ lying lips, once he signs the dotted line on his AARP card. 😛

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Oh and did anybody bother at all to watch those videos at Radio Free PKG? And still, no comment? Weinland Observer? Observer? Weinland said quite clearly, if his prophecies didn’t come to pass in 2008, HE WAS DONE.

    Why wasn’t he done? Because they wasted too much of their retirement nest egg on travelling the world, so they had to keep fleecing the sheeple.

  • xHWA says:

    “I regret that you did not choose to return the favour. ”

    Aggie,
    You pop in and rant. Not just here, but everywhere. I can’t recall the last time you said something that wasn’t at least partly a rant. You threaten to turn WO over to the authorities. You call me and 2 billion others on this earth “damned Christian”, no less. (You meant that with respect, of course.) And I mention the glaringly obvious truth that you are in fact angry (and self-destructively angry) because in your own words you were “pissed off”, and now I’m the one in your mind that is disrespectful. Well, friend, now I’m calling BS on you. Because I have known you!

    We were friends. At least, as much a friend as one person can be to another when the other calls him “damned”, belittles his faith, and insinuates he is a liar (amicably). But this isn’t how you used to be. You used to want to help people. I got to know the what I consider to be the real you. The one that didn’t rant. That one cared. REALLY cared. Tell me, friend, who were you trying to “help” with these rants beside yourself?
    You’ve changed. And if you weren’t so dead set on seeing only the blackest negative in all things, you would have seen that I was not disrespecting you at all.

    Do you still believe in the Golden Rule? And according to your own words, you want to hold others to their own standards. Well, I can only conclude that you treat people the way you want to be treated, and that you want to be held to your own standard. That IS your standard, is it not??? Then you should hold to that standard when I reply to you or I won’t just call you angry, but a hypocrite too. And in neither case would I be a liar.

  • Mark says:

    “I am not angry. Repeat: I am not angry.”

    Yes you are. Unfortunately, it is apparent to almost everyone else but yourself. You spend a LOT of time on these boards trying to convince everyone that you are not angry. Ever wonder why people see you as angry? Your words. Your words speak the abundance that is in your heart. If you don’t want to be labeled as angry, try not writing in a way which displays your anger? You can control all of that. Plus, what’s in it for you to go on tirades against traditional Christianity? Your reaction and approach displays the latent prints of Armstrongism- some doctrines that still linger and have a stronghold. The great satanic conspiracy that Armstrong sold to get people to follow him? From the sound of things you really have not swallowed the red pill.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Mark says:
    July 26, 2009 at 21:41

    “I am not angry. Repeat: I am not angry.”

    Yes you are.”

    And that’s as far as I got in reading THAT comment. Christians, here’s a tip: Don’t accuse non-believers of having negative emotions just because they don’t subscribe to your theology.

    That’s it, I’m out of here for a while. Anyone wants to talk about Weinland without beating me over the head with a Bible, you know where to find me. Weinland Observer, please keep everything I’ve said in mind, and never stop asking questions. Asking questions is what will keep you free.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Hi all,

    I read Mark’s and XHWa’s comments earlier today whilst I was at work. I have dwelt on them all day. I feel like I need to respond.

    First of all, I VERY MUCH value Mark and XHWA – and have greatly appreciated all the love and warmth (and correction!) they have shown me here.

    I just feel so much for Aggie though in what you have said is all. I don’t know if she is angry or not, but she is obviously very passionate and that is coming out. Perhaps all this activity is making things surface again for her, bringing back memories etc.

    All I know is that Aggie has been very kind to me, that’s all – and I feel like I understand her.

    You all have seen me be angry, and sometimes say things too quickly – and you all have been so kind with me. I understand, at least from my point of view and my own experiences, all the things that Aggie expresses – and I feel pretty much the same way in many areas.

    I guess I just wanted to stick up for her, because she has stuck up for me and helped me.

    But again Mark and XHWA, you both have been very kind to me too – it’s just I felt bad for Aggie with what you said. But what she said must have made you both feel bad too, given your response.

    A lot of this is going over my head too, but again, I just wanted to stick up for Aggie.

    I don’t know what else to say really about this – I don’t want to offend anyone either.

    I think we are all just finding our way, trying to find our feet is all – I know I am 🙂 We all do this in different ways.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I just can’t imagine what Aggie went through growing up with all this. And now she is seeing people like me suffering, and WO is right in there – and Aggie is seeing all this. It MUST be bringing up things in her.

    I can’t imagine being born into all this, and then you world being thrown upside down, and being made to keep Christmas all of a sudden.

    There are just so many things that I feel for her about – I want to give her a big hug (I am crying as I write this).

    I don’t know what else to say.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Well quite the event transpired here while I was asleep.
    Aggie, I don’t know whether you visit this blog anymore or not but I’ll answer your question, or what I will answer from it. I did believe in Islam and had a copy of the Quran, both physical copy and online copy. It’s still somewhere in my house although I always did read the online copy. As for what my parents thought let’s just say they knew about it and were glad that I was developing an interest in God. However my family tends to be the kind that tells me “Do well at school. Leave worrying about religion for now.”
    As for the golden rule, I have that and more. I think you’re beginning to realize that I don’t believe something just because it’s thrown at me.

    To anyone who thinks Aggie is bitter, angry, etc.
    I do remember a threat Aggie stated. However I explained how that made me feel and made a leser threat of leaving the site. The threat was Aggie’s way of trying to make me tell my parents about Ron if I didn’t. It’s not like he could find me if he wanted to. Anyway, Aggie has repented from threatening me from what I see. Aggie has now started having nice conversations with me and does have quite a bit of incite. I would have to agree with Aggie on this one. Just because people don’t recognize your three-in-one God and believe that believing that you are free from having to obey God’s laws and that you will go to Heaven if you believe this. It’s not just Agnostics and atheists who leave your worldview who think this makes no sence. The rest of us on this planet haven’t thought very highly of this either. Nobody deserved prosecution because of believing it, but then again the opposite applies as well. I never understood it and I guarantee you I will never believe it. I’m going to say something that makes me appear “angry” although I am not. In the past more so than now, I would thank God for the fact that he made sure I didn’t believe such things. In conclusion people don’t have to believe your ideology in order to not be bitter and angry.

    xHWA, for the record this view of traditional Christianity wasn’t invented by Armstrong. It was around for quite a while.

    Kirrily, I can tell you are very emotional from your last posts. Now I have a clearer idea of what you are going through. Again, as you say, not a perfectly clear idea, but an idea that is getting clearer. I still don’t understand why you are so worried for me. Haven’t you noticed how much I know and think on my own? Is there something you would like to tell me that you don’t maybe want to post here? I get the feeling that this is the case sometimes. Maybe you could contact Mike and get him to send the message through.

  • todd says:

    as a christian that believes in the “Trinity” let me give this example:
    we each have a mind, body and soul.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Let’s please get this back on topic, which is an Insane Lying Lunatic and False Prophet. The minutia of number of God’s (1, 2, or 3) and grace Vs works is only causing dissention. Let let todd’s comment on that be the last.

  • Mark says:

    “Anyone wants to talk about Weinland without beating me over the head with a Bible”

    That goes both ways. If you want to talk about Weinland without beating us over the head with your “I hate all religion especially orthodox Christianity” tirades, then please come back. You have your own blog for venting, correct? Even a non-religious person can quickly smell a con when it comes to Weinland and I enjoy your posts when you stay on topic.

  • xHWA says:

    “xHWA, for the record this view of traditional Christianity wasn’t invented by Armstrong. It was around for quite a while.”

    For the record, you’re right. There are a lot of problems with traditional Christianity. No one has it 100% correct.

    I notice that several times you’ve commented on the problems with what I believe. Now, pray tell, what do I believe? You don’t even know what I believe. Yet you make mention fairly often about the problems with my “three-in-one God”. You don’t even know if I believe in a “three-in-one God”. All you know is that I believe Ron Weinland is a false prophet, and that God’s grace alone saves.

    And you want everyone to notice how much you know and think on your own. Problem is we do notice. And we’re all trying to tell you as nicely as we each can that you are uninformed. It’s no surprise since part near all 15 year olds just seem to think they’re Ernest Hemingway. We’re also trying to tell you that we’re concerned for you. I just hope you avoid anything you’ll regret later.

  • todd says:

    it’s pretty obviouse that rw is afraid to “prophesy” in any of his latest sermons because he knows he failed too many times.
    he will lose his income and lifestyle if he continues to make predictions. so, he has to stay vague in order to keep the few followers that he has.

  • xHWA says:

    Todd – “he will lose his income and lifestyle”

    I agree. I think that’s unavoidable at this point, though.

    And what a shame. Every once in a while the idea occurs to me that I wish well for the people Ron hurts… but what about Ron? Dude is in for some serious introspection. Perhaps behind bars. If only all of this could have been prevented. Ron is going to hurt like many of us hurt now. His family is going to hurt. What about his grandkids? What about all of the unforeseen consequences? It’s too late now. Events are in motion that only a miracle could undo. And in my opinion it goes back to HWA.

    I may be treading on thin ice saying this, because people may misinterpret my words as saying “oh, let’s just let Ron off scott free”, but I notice in my own comments that I overlook the fact that Ron is a victim of HWA. Ron has taken it to his own level, yes I agree. Some people demand more than just Ron let his people go, stop taking tithe money, and give up all ministerial duties/authority/actions. Whatever. I don’t want Ron to hurt like I hurt, I just want him to stop. None of us get to make that call. But if someone was there back in the 70’s or earlier like what Mike has here right now maybe even Ron could have been freed from that abusive system.
    Oh!!…… WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN!!

  • xHWA says:

    WO, I have much to praise you for. Not the least of which is you’re keeping the option of an open mind available. I think that will seriously help you!

    From your reactions to me, I understand that I may seem a bit cold and distant to you. You may interpret that as me being against you personally or religiously or whatever. Allow me to suggest that such an interpretation is incorrect. I am not against you at all. I’m rooting for you! I just have problems expressing that. I like to stick to the facts. It’s easier.

    I’m 11 months out of Armstrongism. 11 months isn’t a long time. I’ve lost a whole heck of a lot in that move. One thing that I seem to have misplaced is trust. I have a problem being warm and fuzzy because there’s not a lot of warm and fuzzy left in me right now. I’m trying to ask you not to take how I say things in the wrong way, ok?
    You appear to view me as some champion of traditional Christianity. I’ve not formed a lot of opinions yet. I’m still trying to make my way to the top of the hill so I can get a clear view, so to speak. So when I say “you don’t know what I believe” that is true because, man, I don’t even really know what I believe most of the time.
    I know that Ron Weinland is dangerous, and I know that I want to help the people he hurts. I hope and pray you’re not hurt by him. That would make me happy. Perhaps all my efforts to answer your questions is time wasted, but it’s worth it in my opinion because all evil needs to succeed is for a good man to do nothing.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    xHWA said: “But if someone was there back in the 70’s or earlier like what Mike has here right now maybe even Ron could have been freed from that abusive system.”

    I don’t think that would have made any difference in Weinland’s case. I have heard him brag in more than one sermon about how he instantly believed the Armstrongism nonsense when his father explained it to him, no need to research it or even read the bible.

    I think that’s the case for many of his recent converts. They’re looking for something, perhaps a bad time in their life. Or they’re uncertain about the future and having someone define it for them gives them comfort, even when he says that he doesn’t “have the foggiest notion” what’s going to happen next.

  • xHWA says:

    “I have heard him brag in more than one sermon about how he instantly believed the Armstrongism nonsense when his father explained it to him, no need to research it or even read the bible.”

    srsly??

    wow

  • Seeker Of Truth says:

    Kirrily XPKG said:
    July 27, 2009 at 05:16
    “I just can’t imagine what Aggie went through growing up with all this. And now she is seeing people like me suffering, and WO is right in there – and Aggie is seeing all this. It MUST be bringing up things in her.”

    Many of us have gone through hell as Aggie did. We were raised in the OWCG too. There are always a lot of people who have been suffering who show up on these blogs and the forums… We’ve ALL been seeing all this. It builds up in us too.
    Some of us come out of Armstongism full of anger and bitterness. They blame God, and walk away from Him. Choose to believe He doesn’t exist.
    Some of come out of Armstrongism and find joy in God’s New Covenant. Most of us suffering long-term damage from growing up in that so-called church.

    We were friendly with Aggie. Some of exchanged pleasant e-mails with her. But she sounded exactly the same last year as she does currently. Bitter and resentful. Give it a few months and you will see that nothing changes.
    She ‘respectfully’ calls BS on us. Swears and dumps on us and then follows with “no offense”
    How do you think she’d handle it if we talked to her the way she does to us?

    Give it a few months.

    A scene from “Unforgiven” with Clint Eastwood Gene Hackman (Little Bill) was kicking the hell out of Richard Harris (English Bob).
    Little Bill was yelling “You might think I’m kicking you, Bob, but I’m not. I’m talking!”

  • Seeker Of Truth says:

    “I have heard him brag in more than one sermon about how he instantly believed the Armstrongism nonsense when his father explained it to him, no need to research it or even read the bible.”

    I, also, have heard Ron say this before.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Seeker Of Truth says:
    July 27, 2009 at 19:58

    “I have heard him brag in more than one sermon about how he instantly believed the Armstrongism nonsense when his father explained it to him, no need to research it or even read the bible.”

    I, also, have heard Ron say this before.

    ………………

    And I have too……

    He even said once that this was a show of unity – that we all just ‘believed’ that it was ‘put into our minds’. It MUST be God!! It made sense to me then.

    To this day, I can’t explain how this happens.

    Mike, I sent you some more emails yesterday….

    WO: No, nothing else to tell you what I haven’t already – I was emotional wasn’t I!! Feeling better now 🙂

    Have a great day all 🙂

  • xHWA says:

    “He even said once that this was a show of unity – that we all just ‘believed’ that it was ‘put into our minds’. It MUST be God!!”

    wow! That’s just…. well…… lots of bad things.
    It’s anti-scriptural, for one (surprise, surprise.) It’s just like I’d expect from a con artist, for another. “Heyyyy.. TRUST me!” (I picture those Orkin commercials where the cockroach tries to deliver a pizza to a lady’s house.) And it’s yet another in a long and unbroken line of wacky things. Every time I hear something new about Ron, it’s always something that’s just not right at all. It’s as if the guy has a massive blinking neon sign over his past that says, “DANGER: RUN AWAY!!”

  • Whisper says:

    xHWA


    ‘“oh, let’s just let Ron off scott free’, but I notice in my own comments that I overlook the fact that Ron is a victim of HWA.”

    Takiing this whole thing (Rons entire ministry of self glorification) I would hope for just that, let Ron off scott free. From a purely legalistic view if Ron would stop ministry he would ergo stop hurting people. The Harm would end. Ron could be, from that point on, a good person again. His past crimes could be taken care of God as God see’s fit in Gods own way in God’s good time. But the harm & damage would end. The delusion would end. If others that Ron has hurt could, at that point, simply turn away and actually live life, forget & forgive Ron then there would be no more damage. Ron would live on his ill gotten tithe gains and continue to delude himself about this biblical thing or that HWA prophecy thing, but once a again no more damage to people beyond Ron and Laura. Self inflication of wounds is sad to see, but IMO a whole lot less evil than inflicting wounds upon others.

    For xHWA is quite right, Ron is a victum of HWA and at some point in his early years he just snapped to “HWA is right” and no investigation and understanding need take place beyond that simple statement. Ron, once he stops hurting others can be pitied. It’s hard to pity someone with all of ones heart when they just wont stop hurting others. Normal human reaction is to despise those aweful people, until they stop harming others and become a case-study in what damage they are doing to themselves and the reasons they do it (delusion in Rons case at the hands of HWA policy).

    But Ron aint a stoppin now is he?
    How long can Ron keep up the pain? How many timelines does he still have in him to lead on the sheeples? When will the delusion end?

    Dunno…

  • todd says:

    I don’t believe RW is delusional at all. He has quit makeing specific “prophesy” because he KNOWS he is not able to get it right.
    He has to continue the scam in order to live the lifestyle he has become used to. He has no other means to make a living. He is trapped in the lie he created.

  • xHWA says:

    todd – “I don’t believe RW is delusional at all. He has quit makeing specific “prophesy” because he KNOWS he is not able to get it right.”

    I agree with that 100%!
    After a few crushing errors, he’s learning more about how the game is best played. I think that Ron stopped being delusional some time ago.
    An odd thing I learned after studying into false prophets, they usually get a surge in followers AFTER a prophecy has failed. Strange, eh?

    HWA would still clean his clock. Herbert was a true master. I almost think it comes down to raw charisma. HWA had a presence that could fill an auditorium. Ron, well, he’s got charisma, but he can’t tie HWA’s shoes.

  • xHWA says:

    Whisper, your compassion is commendable!
    The world would be a better place if there were more like you.

    I think many of his victims will not be so compassionate. But I still think it would be best if they did.

  • xHWA says:

    A thought occurs to me….
    I mentioned charisma. I still think that plays a big part. But then I considered Gerald Flurry. That man has precious little charisma. Still he’s got a much larger organization than Ron does.
    Could success in the false prophecy game come down to a combination of charisma and a great team of hierarchical overlords to support you?

  • angel says:

    It struck me, as I was considering the “weasel words” of RW and HWA, how ironic it is that a group of people can be so adamant about having “the truth” yet so unwilling to honestly examine it. If you really cared about what is true you would not leave one question uninvestigated and you would not settle for false logic or circular reasoning . What I keep hearing from his followers is that they like what he teaches (more than the Bible since they typically refer you only to his books and website).

    Kirrily, I wanted to cheer when I read that you understand you were following a man, not God. RW’s followers don’t get that. They seem to regard his sermons and books as not just equal to the Bible, but superior. They’ve allowed him to define the test of a prophet and disregarded the one God gave us in His word.

    Just a quick word on a previous post where you said you don’t want to get caught up with false teaching again; I felt the same way prior to becoming a Christian and thought staying on the fence was better than being on the wrong side. Problem is, I didn’t get anywhere by sitting there so it really wasn’t any better. God got me off the fence by solving the problem of who was teaching right. He said I don’t have to figure that out because I have His word; if I stick to that I will be able to identify false teaching. You might say lots of people have the Bible and don’t know who is right, ah, but they’re not sticking to the Bible, they’re believing someone who teaches things that don’t line up with it. Anyway, just wanted to share that, maybe it will help. It’s not about trusting men, it’s about trusting God.

  • xHWA says:

    Oh! For anyone who thinks HWA was not a prophet, here’s a chewy tidbit from the archives that I just tripped over. A comment from my old blog made by a wonderfully brilliant, funny, and insightful man who goes by the name “Third Witness”. I will post it in its entirety. Read on!
    ———

    It looks as if Dr. Meredith may have considered Mr. Armstrong to be a prophet in the 1960s—or at least that’s the impression I get from reading statements like this:

    “What Mr. Armstrong has been prophesying is now a REALITY.”
    (Roderick C. Meredith, “I REMEMBER”, The Plain Truth, January 1961)

    [The same wording is also visible in an illustration accompanying Garner Ted Armstrong’s article in the November 1962 PT entitled “WE TOLD You So!”]

    “Do you older readers of the PLAIN TRUTH and listeners to the World Tomorrow broadcast remember Mr. Armstrong prophesying the revival of Germany even while it was being blasted to a crushing defeat in the years 1943-1945?”
    (Roderick C. Meredith, “I REMEMBER”, The Plain Truth, January 1961)

    “ ‘[… ] And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it WILL come), THEN shall they KNOW that a prophet hath been among them’ (Ezek. 33:31-33).
    What is it going to take to make you, personally, KNOW that a PROPHET of Almighty God is speaking to you over the WORLD TOMORROW broadcast?”
    (Roderick C. Meredith, “Are YOU Willing to CHANGE?”, The Plain Truth, November 1962; the same wording was repeated in a revised version of the article in Tomorrow’s World, September-October 1970.)

    (Encouragingly, there is evidence that Dr. Meredith was willing to change: In a much more recent version of the same article in—his own LCG—Tomorrow’s World magazine, March-April 2006, that second sentence reads as follows: “What is it going to take for you to know, personally, that true servants of Almighty God are speaking to you over the Tomorrow’s World telecast?” It’s an interesting exercise to compare all three versions of the article side by side, but that’s another subject altogether—with more relevance to WCG history than anything else. Regardless of any other considerations, it was—and still is—a very effective article.)

    “Your Bible says in Amos 3:7, ‘Surely the Eternal God will do nothing, but he REVEALETH his secret unto his servants the prophets.’ This Work stands ALONE in revealing the meaning of what is taking place on the world scene today and what WILL very soon take place in major world events! As our longtime readers well know, we no longer merely say something is ‘going’ to happen, but often that it is happening right now.
    As Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong’s voice has thundered over the air for more than a third of a century, Britain is swiftly descending in dignity and might as a world power. As we have specifically prophesied ahead of time for decades, the British Empire is virtually GONE! […]”
    (Roderick C. Meredith, “A Crusade for SANITY!”, The Plain Truth, July 1968; the same wording was repeated in an updated version of the article in Plain Truth, May 1979)

    I mention this just in the context of your discussion of prophets. I once had the opportunity to hear Dr. Meredith speak at a campaign in the UK back in the Seventies, and I have always admired his dedication.

    What might also be of particular interest to some of your readers is a statement that Dr. Meredith made in an interview in 1995 that was recently featured on Ambassador Watch:

    “Mr. Armstrong always said, follow me as I follow Christ. He said if you should ever find that I am not preaching the truth to you, you should leave me and not follow me. […] People often forget that.”

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Angel said:

    “Kirrily, I wanted to cheer when I read that you understand you were following a man, not God. RW’s followers don’t get that. They seem to regard his sermons and books as not just equal to the Bible, but superior. They’ve allowed him to define the test of a prophet and disregarded the one God gave us in His word.”

    I’ll tell you even something more alarming.

    I came to the conclusion that his 2 books, GFW and PET, were 2 more books of the BIBLE. After all, if these were written by God’s Final Witness and Prophet, then I viewed them as 2 more books of the actual BIBLE. Just as important as the Gospels, Acts or Revelations (Ron’s book was after all, a ‘Revelation of Revelations’ as he would put it!).

    I HONESTLY thought that by following Ron, I WAS following God. I feel I need to be very honest here, so you can all see what I, and no doubt others in PKG, are actually doing.

    I keep saying, and those of you who have left COG’s or whatever, that you REALLY do not, maybe CAN NOT see this until you actually leave!

    On the day I left, I truly still did believe ALL the truths Ron taught – EXCEPT the one where he thought he was GFW.

    Angel, I have not trusted God at all. I don’t think I EVER have.

    It is so much easier to be TAUGHT BY A MAN, who you THINK is following God. After all, they are ‘higher up the food chain’ and can HEAR God when YOU CAN’T. The first thing I did when I left was to try and find another MAN to follow.

    I viewed/view? it this way:-

    “I am NEVER going to understand the Bible – so why TRY? Where do you even start? How do I know I will not come up with my own weird ideas? Wouldn’t it be safer to find someone who HAS the ‘truth’ and they can teach it to me? But how would I know if THEY had the truth? Would God lead me to someone who HAS it? After all, God appoints teachers, apostles etc – so couldn’t he lead me to one of them?”

    I guess the point is, the one James Malm made to me, was that I don’t want to take responsibility for my own salvation myself.

    It’s a bit rough that I blame God for ‘leading’ me to all these WRONG relegions isn’t it – what’s the deal with that? I don’t know if I even know Him at all!

    Please believe me, I TRULY TRULY believed that He WAS leading me into all this! I REALLY did!!

    EVERYTHING Ron taught, GTA taught, made TOTAL sense! In my whole life, being with SDA’s, Pentecostals, and dabbled in the JW’s – they never really made too much sense to me – but GTA and PKG made TOTAL sense to me!

    I know most of you would probably know all the booklets I would have read with GTA – “UK & US in Prophesy”, “What is the mark of the beast” etc etc – TONNES of booklets which all have scriptures and ‘proof’. I accepted these – TOTALLY.

    Now? Angel – yes I am on the fence – too scared to move. In fact, right now, I don’t WANT to move. I’m on the fence licking my wounds, to afraid to even THINK about what to do next. I sort of pray, but not really – as I no longer know if he even hears me.

    Better stop now, it’s getting a bit much!!! 🙂

    Thanks all – have a great day!!

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I wrote:

    “It is so much easier to be TAUGHT BY A MAN, who you THINK is following God. After all, they are ‘higher up the food chain’ and can HEAR God when YOU CAN’T. The first thing I did when I left was to try and find another MAN to follow”.

    OMG – I just realised what I wrote! HELLOOOOOO – this IS like the Catholics – POPE!! You can only reach God via a MAN!!

    Ron never SAID this, (ie. work out your own salvation, personal relationship with God etc) – but this is NOT Rons ACTIONS (ie. these will be revealed through me, to you, from God – THEN he will put it in your mind too).

    It’s a bit contradictory isn’t it?

    It is just so mind bending!! (*shakes head as brain begins to hurt*).

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Me again, I guess I am the only one awake being in Australia and you are all over the other side of the world – sleeping peacefully I hope! (I feel lonely all the way down here – are you sure there are not any other Aussies posting here? A Kiwi at least??)

    I still don’t think Ron is doing this on purpose – I still really think his poor mind really believes he is Gods Final Witness.

    If it has hurt me as much as it has to ADMIT many things to myself, I can’t imagine how it would have been if I had told everyone that I was God’s Final Witness, written 2 books, believed God had revealed the thunders to me, God revealed Revelation itself, revealed Daniel etc etc – and it turned out to be ‘just me’.

    Can you imagine what it would be like to admit this?

    Like someone posted on this blog a while ago now, and I agree, that MANY of his believers are being willingly ignorant that he is a false prophet, because they are now just HOPING he is right. They have after all, invested MUCH (not just spiritually, but financially etc) in Ron being correct!

    I can’t help but think of Wayne and Chris – another reason I stuck around with Ron was because of them. Again, I was just a ‘babe in Christ’ and they were the ministry – teaching me, guiding me, being there for me (and they really were – I still love these too) – us ‘babies’ should just tow the line and be STUDENTS! (Again, made so much sense to me).

    I think Ron keeps going because he CAN’T ADMIT THIS. I think it would really mean the death of him – spiritually at least. I can’t and I don’t think he will EVER let it go.

    I keep saying this, but a lot of stuff that he has said will come true. eg. There WILL be another big earthquake and/or tidal wave – it’s just the way of things. My opinion is that there will be a really big stock market crash in the next 6-12 months (just my belief mind you!) – and old Ronnie will take the credit. It will feel like a confirmation to his followers that he is right – because he is only focused on Ron (just like I was).

    The more I get into the depths of this, the more scary it is (and the more grateful I am that I am out!).

    Like many of you here have said – that some people have wasted their ENTIRE life WAITING for ‘The End’.

    Ah yes, so many things for me to figure out – (after I have a GOOD rest!! – and practice creating Tsuami’s in my own bathtub!!). 🙂

  • todd says:

    kirrily,
    it’s hard for people with good moral character to imagine someone being evil enough to take advantage of people in the name of our Lord. But, it does happen!
    It falls on all the same sin that has been in the world from the beginning: lust for power, greed, and fear of losing what he has.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    “OMG – I just realised what I wrote! HELLOOOOOO – this IS like the Catholics – POPE!! You can only reach God via a MAN!!”

    Ron is hypocritical on this, criticizing the primacy of the pope on one hand, but advocating the same thing for himself as inheritor of the mantle from HWA. Statements of the sort that it would have been wrong to have moved Pentecost from Monday to Sunday before HWA decided to do it.

    The Primacy of Ron

  • angel says:

    Kirrily,

    I think anyone coming out of a failed relationship has to go through a period of mourning. You feel betrayed by RW, and who can blame you? In time your emotions will settle and you will be able to concentrate on going forward, give yourself that time.

    Sadly, RW doesn’t seem to be touched by the heartache he causes; when someone leaves he writes them off and moves on, according to what I’ve heard.

    Blame RW, by all means, not God. God would not have wanted this to happen to you, that’s why He warned us about men like this, and told us what we must do to avoid being deceived. I know you feel alone, but with God in your life you will never be alone; give Him the chance to speak to you, directly, through His word. I heard a preacher say, concerning those who say they don’t understand the Bible; “keep reading it until you do”. That’s actually good advice, there’s no shortcut, you really do have to put in the time, and God will help you. A couple of years ago I encouraged a friend to do just that, it was tough going for awhile because she doesn’t attend church or have alot of resources, but now she knows what the word says (and doesn’t say) and can recognize error when she hears it.

    Paul said we should not follow teachers. He said he followed Jesus Christ. If we disregard this and follow one anyway, why should we be surprised when it doesn’t turn out well? God gives the gift of teaching for the edification of the church, not so that we can idolize the teacher. I hear you saying you think RW is sincere and really believes he’s GFW, but how can he be when he will not submit to God’s authority and repent of having prophesied falsely? We must take our eyes off men and keep them on God. God will never fail you, He’s not in this for the money and He is worthy of your trust.

    RW wants people to believe they must listen to him and read his books to know the truth. NEVER listen to a man who says this. God entrusted His word to the OT prophets and NT writers; the canon of the Bible is closed, and it tells us all we NEED to know. Anyone claiming to speak for God now must be tested, and if found false, rejected. Don’t let people like him make you believe you can’t understand the Bible, this is a manipulative ploy designed to keep you under his control. The Bible tells us we don’t actually need a man to teach us if we have the Holy Spirit; if you lack wisdom ask God.

    Test EVERYTHING anyone says about God; if it doesn’t line up with scripture you don’t have to believe it.

  • Roger says:

    Kirrily.I am having a coffey in Williamstown today 29/07/09 with Wayne Mathews. He seems like a lovely person.I have survived all deceptions so far,one of the biggest challenges was a Jehovah,s Witness Theologian .I pride my self for not standing under anybody except Jesus .We of children of God have the right to test all things.To see the proverbial staff of Moses be thrown on to the ground and turn in to a snake. To have irrefutable proof beyond all reasonable doubt. As it is written,many shall come in my name,quote-unquote. Wish me luck.I am going to be humble and non-judgemental.Lets see what type of fruit their tree,s produce.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Roger, I hope you test Weinland out very carefully before deciding to follow him. Start by looking at his books critically. Here are a few things in them to consider. Ron is one of the many.

    Yes Wayne can be a lovely person. He can also be quite the sheriff.

  • Karen Mustard says:

    I have a “New Truth”….stop reading all the literature and listening to COG’s! If you want to know what God says, just read the bible. If you think you can’t comprehend its meaning….you’ll comprehend what God gives you THAT DAY….every day will be something different. You don’t need any of those churches or their literature!

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Hi guys,

    Thanks for all your helpful advice and kind responses.

    I’ll get there!! 🙂

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Roger – Wayne is lovely, you will like him.

    Question is – Ron made prophecies which did not come to pass – we’ll, the rest is up to you.

  • Roger says:

    Kirrily:Yes- Wayne is nice, so is his wife.I think he did detect my knowledge of Rons Prophecies that have not come to pass as yet.I stated I sometimes read a publication from a person that should not still be around.He gave the name of Gerrald Flurry immediately.Yes the rest is up to me.I am sure they will have a counter claim to why the Thunders do not increase in volume or to why the reason is that the opening of the seventh seal can surpass the events that proceed it.Thanks Mike for your help.I love the challenges. I am sure God will win in the end.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Roger, I get the feeling that you’re about to buy the whole package. Please check out my summary page on the false prophet and the various links from that page. Also check out Deut 18:20-22

  • Dill Weed says:

    I have survived all deceptions so far,one of the biggest challenges was a Jehovah’s Witness Theologian.

    Unless, he likes rotten fruit, Roger is going to be just fine.

    Dill Weed

  • Dill Weed says:

    Roger,

    I put up a post yesterday that seems relevant to your position. I am a former JW and can tell you their doctrine is similar to COGs. They were date setters who learned not to get specific. JWs are very sophisticated in mind control. I’ve been following Ron to see how things develop. In the post, I mention a couple of ways to protect oneself against deception.

    All the best,

    Dill Weed

  • xHWA says:

    “and practice creating Tsuami’s in my own bathtub!!). ”

    LOL!

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    xHWA says:
    July 29, 2009 at 07:18

    “and practice creating Tsuami’s in my own bathtub!!). ”

    LOL!

    Resultant damage: 3 soaked bathmats, dog with wet paws walked through house – now THAT is an increase in thunders wouldn’t you say!

  • xHWA says:

    You sunk my battleship!

  • Roger says:

    Dill & Mike: Thanks: I will go over Proverbs ,Eccliasiastes and Deuteronomy.We all feel that the time is nigh for the world.The Lord will make his intentions clearly known I am sure, through End-Time Prophets that give specific accurate detail regarding prophetic events ,well before their due-by dates.When these prophets reveal them selves and the true Church of God that they represent ,which ever splinter that may be,they will not need to publish any books.Their spoken word will have all the power it will ever need to convince the whole world of believers.We all will know very quickly by the frenzy of acknowledgement through the general media and internet hits on (You-Tube) ect.The Lord would not bring his direct End-Time prophets in to disrepute with incorrect and or false,misleading information.Mr Weinland may state that this false prophecy and or inaccuracy was necessary in some regard to test the waters,so to speak? I am sure this will be the only parth for him to try to continue on, collecting tithes and narcasistic self gratification.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Roger, I’m glad you decided to investigate Weinland more before following him. Hopefully you’ll check out the next false prophet by examining what they say carefully, because he might not have websites that have been tracking him.

    I’m curious about how you got to see Wayne. In the past, they wouldn’t have any contact with you until you’ve started paying tithes to them and assured them you’re keeping the Sabbath. Did they make you jump through all those hoops, or have they changed their policy?

  • Roger says:

    Mike: All hoops,straight through the center.Like a insect into the electric bug zapper.