Yet Another Prophetic Date to Worry About: Oct 19, 2009

In the past I’ve blogged about James Malm who had a prophetic timeline structured around the same 1335-day interval between Trumpets 2008 and Pentecost 2012 that Weinland is using for his current timeline.  Yesterday, James and Thielogical Bob have had a contretemps going as described on Bob’s blog and and on James’ website.

Malm states on his site:

We therefore expect a religious leader in Europe, to be empowered around 19 Oct 2009 and to call for a new order in Europe.  We would expect that he will do this in the name of PEACE, to provide peacekeepers to enforce the new peace agreement and to maintain world peace by providing a counterbalance to America and the Asiatic powers of Russia and China. This religious leader will become known as a man of peace, a real prince of peace. This new Roman Empire will be made up of ten independent nations with their foreign and military affairs controlled by a single leader.  By whatever title he is called, he will be an emperor.

During the exchange he had with Bob Thiel, James said to Bob:

I am having some impact and soon this will increase as these things come to pass.  I am simply offering you the opportunity to be aware of what is happening.

Also on the same web page, he said about Bob:

I am witnessing the truth to him, so that at the appropriate time, when he is humbled he will respond.

Both of these statements resound with me as being similar to statements Weinland has made in the past.  During the years leading up to the first timeline, Ron kept talking about disasters that would soon occur to give him credibility.  At the end of January, he called a two-day fast so his members could humble themselves before God and beseech him to bring about the thunders to humble the US.

At least James doesn’t have a following like Ron, and hasn’t asked them to cash in their life savings to send to him.  And back in October James promptly admitted his previous timeline was false.  There was a true statement about the future in association with that event:” Yet somehow I think that we will hear more from Malm in the future.”  (I’m the one who made it 😀 )

James would like to battle it out with Bob over interpretation of scripture, but Bob is dodging that discussion  — seems James would be better off following Bob’s own spritual idols Rod Meredith and Herbert Armstrong.  I’m not going to enter the scriptural fray either.  Too many false prophets have made much of it being so many days between a particular pair of dates — how many of them have been correct?  James’ prophecy seems to revolve around years with a 46-day interval between Pentecost and the 6th day of Unleavened Bread, which is not exactly a rare event.

It’s better to assume that a prophet is false unless and until he proves himself true.

I’ll let James have the last word on this post (that is until someone adds a comment 😉 )

Mike
Of course I believe what I say, or I wouldn’t say it. I do not make such an effort to say things I do not myself believe.  I am not so deceitful as that.  I do not represent predictions as Holy Writ nor do I claim infallability, nor do I make personal predictions in; the name of the Lord.

If Robert thinks I am a false prophet, then he MUST also admit that Herbert was one; for Herbert declared in the name of the Lord and I do not.

As far as witnessing the truth to him, I was referring to what I said in the correspondence.  This was about Idolatry and self righteousness and was not meant to be about any predictions.

The things I have said directly concerning doctrine and prophetic explanation are solid until proven otherwise.  The only thing in possible doubt for me is timing.  If these things do not happen this year, they will happen in some other year.  The scriptures will be fulfilled. As I said, I do believe what I say until I am proven wrong by events.  I do leave that door open and will acknowledge any error as it is proven.

I realize that I am not perfect and do not possess all knowledge, this is why I never declare any prediction; in the name of the Lord.   Deu 18 refers to speaking:” in the name of the Lord” and being presumptuous by declaring that our own thoughts are God’s Word.  I do not do that.  I make a clear difference between my own positions and what is Holy Scripture.

To be very clear.  At the appointed time, the false prophet will be set up.  He will call for a new order in Europe.  He will succeed within 75 days. A declaration of peace and security (safety) will come toward the end of those 75 days.  Sometime toward the end of those 75 days this false prophet will go to the Holy Mount.  A war will commence resulting in the occupation of Jerusalem and the defeat of Israel and her allies (America is obviously allied with Israel and will not let them go done. The argument about BI is irrelevant.) .  This is all Holy Scripture. It will all happen.  I stand on that because scripture declares it.

When this will happen is open to question.  To me it looks very strongly like it will happen this Autumn.  I am not prepared to state that it will definately happen this autumn.  However if it does not; it WILL DEFINITLY HAPPEN  some other year.

I make no claims for myself.  If you and Robert feel that I am a prophet, albeit a false one; that is your opinion.  I do not consider myself a prophet, either true or false.  I am just a person trying to wake up the brethren and get them thinking and questioning what they have been told. In an attempt to help turn some away from man worship and back toward God.

If I am wrong in thinking that this is the year, it will only prove my point.  Don’t rely on men, put God first. Only He knows all things.

Sincerely  James Malm

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61 Comments

  • xHWA says:

    “If Robert thinks I am a false prophet, then he MUST also admit that Herbert was one; for Herbert declared in the name of the Lord and I do not.”

    Hallelujah! Tell it on the mountain, brother!

    Herbert Armstrong is a false prophet (well, he is!) and especially so since he declared in the name of the Lord. MY POINT EXACTLY!!

    *big finish* We walked to God’s house side by side, and council bleeeeeeended sweeeeet………..

  • Whisper says:

    Good for James
    Making some predictions based on his “interpretation” of scripture, but noted stongly as “HIS” and not Gods ergo making it a personal opinion.

    Ron on the other hand has that heady cup of delusion in his hands and believes that he is a Prophet and Witness, a living breathings pronouncement of the Bible. I truely titanic and powerful man… who has not recieved his power card quite yet but can still Prophecy with perfect… well sometimes perfect… uh… sorta perfect… hmmm… well has any prediction of Rons come true? Come to think of it Rons accuracy leaves much to be desired! Not to preach to the man up-stairs but God would quite possibly get the word out much clearer if his Prophet would predict with pin-point accuracy, no ambiquity.

    James on the other hand is much easier to discuss as he is “predicting” through his research and not being given the holy truth via Prophecy! Of course if Ron used this intent then he would be just a man, perish the thought. He’s a Witness and so is his wife by cracky! And one day he will be able to proove it by stopping the rains, calling down plagues, and uh… doing witness things!

  • Dill Weed says:

    Seems like Jesus Christ wasn’t whispering in James’ ear each time he opened a Seal of Revelation.

    GFW Pg 63 “When Christ began opening those Seals, He revealed their meaning to me, His servant.”

    Which seems indeed to be a heady brew!

    Dill Weed

  • J says:

    I haven’t even heard of James Malm until now.

    Hey, the way I see it, the more false dates we get to shake our heads at, the better.

    Matthew 24:36, Matthew 24:36, Matthew 24:36!!!!!!

    God wants us to be ready ALL the time for Christ’s second-coming. If God told us WHEN that was going to occur, then you could be sure that everyone would put off being good and faithful until the last minute.

  • Whisper says:

    The stock market, while always a disquite behemoth sluggishly squirming this way and that, continues to rise, imagine that?
    Un-employment rise is slowing, requests for manufactured good in rising, filing for chapter 11 is caping. What ever could be happening?
    It’s called human nature, we become slovenly and spoiled ever moving upwards in our financial tree climbing until we get to high and the branch we stand upon is not as stable as we would want it to be. It breaks, we fall, catch ourselves, painfully re-right outselves, and begin to, slowly this time, climb up again.

    Rinse, wash, repeat in the future.
    Oh, and of course in the future when “all this happens again” call it the “end of the world” again and panic.

    Tell me, is Rons destroyed grass & trees growing back?

  • jack635 says:

    I had an email exchange with James Malm about august last year. The impression I got was he’s looking for money. It’s always about the money with these guys.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Which splinter was Malm a part of, before he went “independent” (of his own sanity)?

    “The argument about BI is irrelevant.”

    Finally, a false prophet I can get behind!! :mrgreen:

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Hi all,

    I have had some contact with James too, when I first left PKG. I suppose many of us want to get straight back into another group when we leave a COG, and I was looking to do exactly that.

    Before I left PKG, I knew that someone (found out later it was James) had come up with the second timeline before Ron did (that always bothered me, but still stayed with PKG for some 6 more months anyway!) – and that is why James was the first person I contacted.

    I found him honest and truly helpful. I started to listen to his sermons and liked them – BUT……

    I just did not want to get caught up in dates again.

    James told me to study the word for myself, and even helped me when I asked him HOW to study the word. He told me to buy a strongs concordance (which I did buy, and it remains in it’s bag and I have not opened it).

    I think the advice he gave me was very good – I just haven’t done it. I don’t have the energy to do anything but work, keep my household, and of course – BLOG!! 🙂

    I’ll get back into study again one day, but I am in no hurry. Just need to RECOVER for a while.

    I liked the fact that James said to ‘study the word for yourself’ – and I think from memory, he does not believe that the ‘true’ church is in just one organisation.

    Anyway, I found him very nice and honest.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “I suppose many of us want to get straight back into another group when we leave a COG, and I was looking to do exactly that.”

    In retrospect, although it was tougher at the time, I’m glad my family wasn’t inclined to go that way. We’d probably still be church-hopping, ten years later, if we had been. 😛

  • Mark says:

    “I just did not want to get caught up in dates again. ”

    Good for you. Prophecy is just spiritual fast food that people eat because it tastes good, but isn’t good for you. Show me anyone who is a fantatic over end-of-world prophecy and I will show you someone who isn’t spiritually healthy.

  • toby says:

    Hi Kirrily, While still a member of a Cog. myself, I bear in mind what Denis Deihl said “100% of those who claim to know when the end of the world will be, have been 100% wrong 100% of the time” I still believe that what is spoken of in Revelations will come to pass, the when is held in Gods safe hands, who knows it could be hundreds of years in the future yet. Consider the Jewish calendar year. This is only 5769. I would add, I have enjoyed your comments in other areas, they show that you are a person who has a great deal of humility who is able to admit to feelings that I would never have the courage to, good fortune to you

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Stil posting, just a little less. Taking suggestions to just get out of the picture for a while and listen.

    Hi Kirrily. I am glad that you have done some research and are trying to discover what to believe. What you believe isn’t something I, Mike, James, Ron, or anyone else will decide. It’s what you decide. Again, congradulations to you. I don’t need to restate why I believe Ron had the timeline more correctly as I already did before. With this post, I just personally want to congradulate you. You have to believe what is true and if you feel that there is more truth in what James says than anywhere else, go for it! Again, congrads!

    Mark, I love your analogy. With the church Of God it is different as people don’t believe what they believe because of the timing only. They believe it because it is what they see to be true. They see the Sabbath, holey days, tithing, God’s plan, whatever is given and in history what had been given depending on the time: to be the truth. Even Ron states that if you believe what he says and obey God just to save yourself it’s not enough. I don’t believe what I learned from Ron just because I know what is stated will happen soon. That does add to my excitement but if someone told me to believe them because the world will end in a few months and I can be saved just for believing what they say, that’s not going to convince me any more than the words “Believe in Christ to be saved from eternal fire” or something among those lines did. I don’t believe because of fear but because something is true. I can’t be frightened in to a belief system, never could be and never will be. Sadly, there are many who are the opposite way. I do like your analogy though, love it.

  • Mark says:

    “I don’t believe because of fear but because something is true.”

    Believing anything because you call it “true” is not a reason to believe. You *believe* it to be true, but that truth has to be validated and hold up to scrutiny, in this case, the Bible. Unfortunately, Ron’s theology (prophecy or any other doctrine he espouses) doesn’t hold to any standard other than his own. He is a truly ignorant man when it comes to understanding the basics of scripture. It’s much easier to believe the words of Jesus when He said: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” I hope you do.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Sorry for not clarifying. You have to know about a matter before you can believe something about it. There can be no pre-conceved truth. If you do not know whether or not it is true, you are still setting yourself up for failure. The Bible is no exclusion of this. By proving everything I had to also prove the Bible. Prophesies that came to pass proved this to me. I do the best with what I know, learn the most I can with what I have, and hope I do this well. For me the basic truth was not always the Bible or any book although I was inspired by creation verses in the Bible or Quran. It was a logical thing that God did exist. His eternal spirit of giving also was. I also knew that I needed to do the same thing, be kind and good. In other words, love God and neighbour. Nothing could ever convince me this is false. This belief transcends all religions, books, and traditions. It is from here where truth begins and from where the mind is ready to seek truth. I am not saying that someone in another condition can not learn the truth but he who has this basic truth goes far in life. I always had this truth, always will. I just feel I learned more, particularly recently. I don’t believe I am wrong. If I thought I was I would believe differently.
    As for the description of John 3:19, I understood so much more after learning God’s plan in the holey days. Traditional Christianity never had a clear description, and it was always more of faith. I don’t believe blindly, never will never did. Whatever I believe I always think I understand. What some call faith I call blind faith. I prefer faith on what is to come based on what has come.
    I leave for now. If nothing else, believe the golden rule and mean it, not just on paper.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Mark – I have been VERY spiritually unhealthy, and have been caught up in ‘dates’ more than once. I am still trying to work out WHY. I need to change.

    Toby – I’ve always found it a lot easier to bare my soul to strangers! Blogging here is therapy for me, and if I can share my TRUE feelings and thoughts, no matter how they make me look – I’ll do it. It is helping me SEE clearer. Also, if it helps others who may be reading here that have just left PKG, all the better. I didn’t know that the Jewish calendar only calculates our year at 5769! Wow – IF (a big IF) the 6,000 year man’s rule thing is correct, there is a fair bit of time left then!!

    WO: I’m not now listening to James – I’m not listening to ANYONE. It’s just that James was nice to me is all, and I liked that he told me to study for myself. I will do this, just not now.

    Thing about ‘studying for yourself’ that worries me, is that MILLIONS of people have done this over THOUSANDS of years – look how many beliefs there are out there! What would make me any different? What weird ideas would I come up with?

    That is why I liked (SO MUCH!) the idea of a MAN or ORGANISATION that was TRUE that could TEACH me (so I didn’t have to try and learn for myself).

    This says a lot about me I think – for one, I obviously do not trust in my relationship with God do I. Second, this type of attitude leaves one vulnerable to people like Ron. Thirdly, it’s not teaching me to think for myself, and I am not taking on any of the responsibility for my OWN salvation (just put it in the hands of someone else – that makes sense (er, maybe not ;-).

    Also this: Sometimes I believe that I only want to obey God if I think he is coming soon. This is a pattern I have recognised. Whenever I believe the ‘end’ is not iminent, I just do my own thing. When Ron came along, I FULLY believed it. Then thought ‘Well, better do the right thing now!’. So I did. That says a lot about me also. Why do I not ‘do the right thing’ anyway? Again, things I need to work on. I think through all this, it has given me a better ‘view’ of myself, my nature, my intentions. Also, it has given me the ability to be HONEST with myself – no matter how bad it is. I am not ashamed, I am glad I can SEE it, so I can work on CHANGING it. So, it’s all good 🙂

    Ah yes, so much to consider – looking at the ugly truth! (Ouch – but I know it’s good for me! 🙂

  • todd says:

    kirrily,
    “Why do I not ‘do the right thing’ anyway?”

    Don’t feel bad. Paul struggled with the same thing. And, so do all other Christians.

  • todd says:

    p.s. romans 7:14-25

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Thank you Todd 🙂

  • xHWA says:

    Does anyone know of any comprehensive list of HWA’s failed predictions on the date of Christ’s return? I’m not looking for the big list of 200+ failed prophecies, but only specifics about the date Christ would return.

  • Mark says:

    “Traditional Christianity never had a clear description, and it was always more of faith.”

    Exactly, or more precisely, the BIBLE teaches faith. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” EPHESIANS 2:8-9
    Holy Days= works
    Sabbath = works
    Tithing = works
    You aren’t saved by any of these things that you do.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mark, faith without works is dead. Is someone who commits crimes saved if he believes that Christ died for his sins and excepts him as his savior? Also here’s another question for you. Why is it that in certain literature from traditional Christianity the name God and the name Jesus Christ are used so interchangably that it is sometimes hard to know who is being discussed. I never read too deeply in to the literature but I often find this happens.

  • xHWA says:

    WO – Old Covenant law keeping does NOT equate to “works”. Read James’ examples of works and you will see such things as clothing the poor.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Feeding the poor is indeed part of the commandments. If you don’t help someone then you have no love for them. For sure someone who keeps holey days and does not do anything else that is a part of the love God requires us to have needs to repent.

  • todd says:

    mark,
    it is very interesting to me that the rw followers such as wo disregard the SCRIPTURE like the one you just pointed out.
    he didn’t even acknowlege this scripture…just posted his same mindless babble.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “In other words, love God and neighbour.”

    The Churches of God don’t believe this, WO, at least the “and neighbour” part. Either that, or they restrict the “and neighbour” to only those who are fellow members of the current Church of God they are attending. And even then, sometimes not, if a church member is deemed “unconverted” or “ungodly”.

    I remember quite clearly a sermon in ’93, right about when Flurry was poaching members, where the minister stated from the pulpit, that we must ONLY have agape (brotherly love) for other members of the Worldwide Church of God; we must NOT have agape for members of the Philadelphia Church of God, as they were falsely-so-called Christians, and deceived. (It was an invective against jumping ship for PCG, basically.)

    Sad to say, it made sense to me, at the time. 🙁

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Notice though that traditional Christianity doesn’t teach the loving your neighbour bit as requirement for salvation, just the part about recognizing Christ as savior.
    Aggie, if he said agape this is God’s love. Philia is brotherly love. Ron stated this in a sermon. I’m not fluent in Greek so I wouldn’t know. Nevertheless, this business about not being able to have contact with certain people is creepy. IIn my oppinion this turns a belief from a belief to a cult belief. To me what people brand a cult is only a cult when it starts isolating people, banning communication as an example. I never had a problem with religions that had uncommon beliefs as long as those believving them were able to cease from believing them if need be.
    In my oppinion there is a difference between exceptence and condoning or promoting. If someone has a view other than mine I need to except that person with the oppinions. However if I promote them or incourage them in a wrong direction, that’s going to far.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    As for me not quoting the scripture, I should have done that earlier. You still need to do works to be saved as faith without works is dead. However you do not deserve to enter God’s kingdom by your works but enter by what you believe. Armstrong had a good example for this in an old broadcast, sorry I don’t remember which one or where I heard it. He stated that grace is like a rich man saying you need to come up to him to recieve $50. When you come up you did nothing to deserve the $50, it was just a prerequisite for recieving the money and that you will recieve it if you act upon what you know and believe it.
    The same applies to grace. You don’t deserve it because of what you believe and do but because it is what is required and you do it. Speaking of $50, I’ll bet $50 that someone here has heard this example in the past.

  • DRMR says:

    Weinland Observer says:
    July 25, 2009 at 10:08
    “To me what people brand a cult is only a cult when it starts isolating people, banning communication as an example. ”

    Banning communication as an example. You mean the way RW does with his people ?

  • Mark says:

    “Is someone who commits crimes saved if he believes that Christ died for his sins and excepts him as his savior?”

    Yes, absolutely! Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous. You are correct, faith without works is dead. But that doesn’t equate to no salvation. Salvation is a gift from God apart from works- lest any man should boast.

    “Notice though that traditional Christianity doesn’t teach the loving your neighbour bit as requirement for salvation, just the part about recognizing Christ as savior.”
    That’s because “love thy neighbor” isn’t a *requirement* for salvation. Salvation is a gift from God- apart from works. Once you believe in Jesus (that is not even of ourselves, but by the grace of God) you are declared righteous and have eternal salvation. For God to go back on that promise is to put God into a position of being a liar. You could not trust God for the promise. You live out your faith, some will have more fruits than others, and some it may appear that they have no faith, but only God knows the heart. We live in a fallen world and our mortal bodies are constantly at war with the spiritual. Even those who beat their bodies into obedience still fall way short. When you understand that you nothing can separate you from the love of God (to those who are in Christ), it is liberating. That’s a wonderful message of hope. I don’t worship a God who would take back that $50.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    This Wikipedia article gives a number of checklists to define a cult. I personally don’t agree with them all. I think the one by Eileen Barker has merit as relating to PKG:

    A checklist, made by professor Eileen Barker PhD, in which traits of groups that can evolve to be dangerous are described. Barker stated that her list was based on empirical research. The traits named include:

    1. A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially; [somewhat socially in the case of PKG]
    2. Adherents who become increasingly dependent on the movement for their view on reality; [Weinland’s followers depend on him to define what current events mean]
    3. Important decisions in the lives of the adherents are made by others; [Weinland passes judgment on certain behaviors, such as smoking]
    4. Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and Satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion; [need I say more?]
    5. Leaders who claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers; [yep!!!]
    6. Leaders and movements who are unequivocally focused on achieving a certain goal. [goal is “helping others” by promoting Ron’s books, among others]

    Checklists from others have other characteristics of varying relevance to PKG.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Aggie, if he said agape this is God’s love. Philia is brotherly love. Ron stated this in a sermon.”

    He (my pastor at the time) did say agape. See below. It makes sense.

    Weinland referenced “agape” (and pronounced it wrong to boot) in the April 12, 2008 sermon.

    “No one in any church out there has ever, ever, EVER experienced agape.” Around the 1:37 mark in the audio file.

    I seem to recall that statement making the Christian anti-Weinland bloggers go bug%^&* last year, but I don’t remember exactly why or what the source of their frothing at the mouth was. Regardless, we were instructed from the pulpit, in 1993, not to have agape for PCG members, that we were only to have agape for other Worldwide members.

    As to agape vs. philia, we were said to have “godly love” for each other, because we were members of the God Family, and would be reborn as gods, once the Kingdom came. It’s an easy thing for someone who was never a part of the church to misunderstand, WO, but I hope you understand it much more clearly now. Anyone in the world, anyone not baptized into god’s true church, is basically demon-possessed at worst, or at best, under Satan’s dominion.

    Of course, there is no “one true church of god” anymore, so the world really isn’t under Satan’s dominion at all. And it never was to begin with, either, that was just another means of thought-reform and crowd-control, practiced in the church.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Nevertheless, this business about not being able to have contact with certain people is creepy. IIn my oppinion this turns a belief from a belief to a cult belief. To me what people brand a cult is only a cult when it starts isolating people, banning communication as an example. I never had a problem with religions that had uncommon beliefs as long as those believving them were able to cease from believing them if need be.”

    Good, I’m glad you’re coming around to this perspective, WO. Keep asking questions, and thinking along these lines. Asking questions is what will keep you free.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “DRMR says:
    July 25, 2009 at 10:59

    Weinland Observer says:
    July 25, 2009 at 10:08
    “To me what people brand a cult is only a cult when it starts isolating people, banning communication as an example. ”

    Banning communication as an example. You mean the way RW does with his people ?”

    I think WO’s referring to the Packatollah’s moratorium on the Internet for the young’uns still trapped in RCG, DRMR. 🙁

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “That’s because “love thy neighbor” isn’t a *requirement* for salvation.”

    Why the hell not?!

    See, this is what pisses me off about Trinitarian Christians. They think they can get away with bloody murder (Literally — just listen to all the convenient “converts” on Death Row!!), and because they say “I’m saved! I’m saved!” that lets them off the hook. “I’m not perfect, just forgiven!” And that’s the cop-out they use, when someone calls them on racist/misanthropic behaviour. E.g., the current GCI (a pox on all their heads the bastards) likes to spout this nonsense, and will consistently debunk BI — while actively promoting the violent, hateful, spiteful anti-Semitism that is somehow OK in Protestant/Trinitarian Christian circles.

    FYI, believing in an imaginary sky buddy does NOT let you off the hook if you’re an asshole/lack compassion/have no empathy for non-believers/the Other etc.

    Preaching’s getting a little thick in here again Mike. Damned Christians need to tone it down.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    /grumpy Sorry guys.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    ISTR that Flurry’s PCG has put the brakes on Internet access also.

    At the beginning of 2008, the Insane Lying Lunatic indicated that his members were going to be allowed to promote the book, even with cards to hand out in the street. When people took that to heart and started promoting the book on the Internet, he slammed the brakes on. And the Weinlandites disappeared from the Internet

    Yes, Aggie is a bit grumpy here. But he’s right, things are moving in the direction of a little bit too preachy here. Please, let’s not get any more doctrinal than we have.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Aggie, I give you 100% congrads on your last three comments! Everything you stated is absolutely true. Who cares about the way you said it as long as it’s true!
    For the record people, traditional Christianity is the only religion that I know of that preaches salvation on simply believing something and not by deeds. To quote from a website “Satan believes in God and he’s not going to Heaven.” You can easily replace God with Christ as many love doing so and replace going to Heaven with being saved if you want and you will get to the same conclusions. This is what turns me off to Traditional Christianity, that along with the faith in Trinity and support for racist ways such as Zionism.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Unfortunately, WO, despite our agreement on professing Christianity, I remain a staunch atheist. Sorry to disappoint. :mrgreen:

    “Mike (DDTFA) says:
    July 25, 2009 at 12:37

    ISTR that Flurry’s PCG has put the brakes on Internet access also.”

    Arrrgh! That sucks!!! 🙁

  • AggieAtheist says:

    But LOL now I understand why the reporter asked Stephen if they were related to the Branch Davidians! 😯

    (Actually, all CoGs are — WCG is “first cousins” with the Branch Davidians, on the Adventist family tree.)

  • DRMR says:

    But when RW prohibits communication between his members and those who don’t agree with his teachings, isn’t that banning communication ?

  • Observer says:

    DRMR: RW does NOT do that. Where did you come up with such a ridiculous accusation? If that were the case, I would be in BIG trouble. It is no secret that I read this blog and have commented at times and no one has told me not to do it. And BTW, Aggie, according to Ron (last weeks sermon to be precise) our neighbor includes everyone we are in contact with: co-workers … even someone along the road that has a flat tire. We don’t have to ask first if they are members of PKG. If we are in a position to help and we refuse to, we are not showing love (agape) and it is sin. If you are going to malign Ron and PKG, at least stick to the facts or you will lose any credibility you might have.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “If you are going to malign Ron and PKG, at least stick to the facts or you will lose any credibility you might have.”

    Observer:

    I was speaking of the culture of the church that I was born and raised in. If you did not have the same experiences in the church, I am glad for you. Please do not minimize, nor attempt to dismiss, the fact that I did have those experiences, and I am telling the truth.

    As for maligning Weinland, I provided a direct quote from his sermon of April 12, 2008, with a link to the audio file so you could confirm for yourself. Please refer me to the exact place in my comments above where I “malign” Weinland and his micro-mini-splinter-Church-of-God-pension cheque.

    Because, really, that’s all the PKG is to Weinland and Wife anyway. <—- Now THAT, Observer, is maligning Weinland.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    AggieAtheist says:
    July 25, 2009 at 16:59

    “If you are going to malign Ron and PKG, at least stick to the facts or you will lose any credibility you might have.”

    Observer:

    I was speaking of the culture of the church that I was born and raised in. If you did not have the same experiences in the church, I am glad for you. Please do not minimize, nor attempt to dismiss, the fact that I did have those experiences, and I am telling the truth.

    ME TOO.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    I mean, I wasn’t born into it (thankfully), but the rest….. ME TOO.

  • DRMR says:

    Observer says:
    July 25, 2009 at 15:56
    DRMR: RW does NOT do that. Where did you come up with such a ridiculous accusation?

    From reading parts 1,2,3 of “Ron Weinlands Governance Tactics”.

  • xHWA says:

    “That’s because “love thy neighbor” isn’t a *requirement* for salvation.”
    Why the hell not?!

    Because loving your neighbor isn’t a requirement for salvation. It is a result of salvation. Belief in Christ is a requirement for salvation. Love for your neighbor will result from that.
    You can love your neighbor without salvation. But you can’t receive salvation without believing in Christ.

    Let’s put it this way – Smoke isn’t needed to start a fire, it’s a result of fire once it’s already started.

  • xHWA says:

    I like that link, Aggie.

    “The 7th seal is opened. Somebody in email will say ‘Well, nothing happened.’ You know? Well, you know? Did I say anything would happen on the 18th? It’s a spiritual thing. I thought I made that abundantly clear.”
    “And the world will be shocked! And in horror! On the day that the 7th seal is opened. You will lie, you will twist, you will distort, and you will die… speedily.”

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Belief in Christ is a requirement for salvation. Love for your neighbor will result from that.”

    I’m sorry, but I have to call bullshit on this xHWA (and I know you know that isn’t meant personally, as we have amicably agreed to disagree in the past). Explain to me then, Christian Identity. I’m certain any one of those bible-thumping white supremacists are saved (i.e., they meet the criteria because they believe in a trinitarian christological mythos as fundamental and real), but they certainly do not “love their neighbour”. Ditto the fundie right-wing George Dubya and his jihad against Muslims. He most assuredly meets the criteria for being saved (belief in Christ), and he 100% most certainly does NOT love his neighbour.

    Also see Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, hell let’s throw in Jeanne d’Arc — she was saved (had belief in Christ), and her fellow Christians (who were saved too, because they believed in the christological figure), burned her at the stake!

    It sounds good in theory. In practice, it’s toxic.

    “Let’s put it this way – Smoke isn’t needed to start a fire, it’s a result of fire once it’s already started.”

    “There is no spoon.” Or, more accurately: “There is no fire.” Christians are demonstrably the least likely to “love their neighbour” where the “neighbour” in question is not also “saved” — and even then, sometimes not. Witness the “Christianity falsely-so-called” doctrine we were exposed to, when we were kids. And the Christians hated us just as much, too. (Just ask the ones who picketed a Feast site I attended when I was a child.)

    I could point to any number of news stories that put the lie to your assertion above, that anyone who’s saved, automatically loves their neighbour, because they’re saved. But I won’t, because I respect you, and I don’t want this thread to get away from the real topic, that of false prophecy.

    I hope we can continue to agree to (amicably) disagree on this one, xHWA.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    xHWA says:
    July 25, 2009 at 17:57

    “I like that link, Aggie.”

    Also the rest of the RadioFreePKG channel. It’s not much, but what’s there pretty much says everything that needs to be said, IMO.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Particularly the quote 30 seconds in, on that video I linked above. :mrgreen:

  • AggieAtheist says:

    As a matter of fact, watch that whole video, and then tell me why you believe in Weinland. Go on, it’s only four minutes out of your life, and if your convictions really are solid, what have you got to lose?

  • xHWA says:

    God loves you, Aggie. But you’re dead wrong.
    I know you can’t accept that now.

    I feel for you because I know what’s eating you. And I would not curse my worst enemy with the anger you carry with you. Until you take steps to deal with what your REAL problem is, flaming Christians isn’t going to get anyone anywhere. (And it’s equally pointless for me to bother to respond to you about it.)

    You can hate Christians all you want, and tell me it’s not personal, but it is personal. And to demonstrate to everyone else that you haven’t a clue about what you’re saying… God loves you, died for you, and compels me to love you, too. I love you because of the love God has shown me. He’s healed my pain. And this is a result of salvation.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Aggie, I do not need to say this everytime as it will turn in to spam but whenever you slam the Traditional Christianity package I give you a thumbs up. Picture me saying right on Aggie! I say God loves you, but he didn’t die for you. Also, he’s not going to save you just for believing he did. xHWA, while I don’t quite comprehend non-belief in God I fully comprehend the disillusionment with the Constentinian-evangelical form of Christianity. I don’t need to say anymore. Aggie nailed it. No wonder so many were eager to imbrace Islam when it came along. Notice many are converting to the Religion, many from your religion. It’s because people want to believe a way of life. I am now more convinced than ever that Traditional Christianity can be reduced to an oppinion that is believed to give eternal life. This is all for now. Peace.

  • Mark says:

    “I say God loves you, but he didn’t die for you.”

    Wow, can’t get any more specific than that in denying the gospel.

  • todd says:

    wow….i don’t understand the complete contempt for “traditional Christianity”.
    yep, there is no doubt there have been several attempts by groups and individuals to abuse God’s word to gain their own power! All throughout history! Even today (RW).
    isn’t it ironic the mindless bable of wo brings islam into the discussion again….Another group of people abusing what they believe to be God’s word to do all sorts of evil to there fellow human beings. (does wo see this…i wonder)
    Although not all muslims believe in this abuse, neither should all “traditional Christianity” be lumped into the abusive pile of crap.
    I know some groups/different “religions” that do a great deal of good along with many individuals that do try to live the Christian life to the best of their ability. We all fall short from time to time….sometimes daily….but, that is the reason Christ died for us!! Hello!

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Todd i admit what you said is true. The difference between Islam and Traditional Christianity is that Islam doesn’t teach that just believing in God saves you. Instead they believe or should believe if they truly believe the Quran that believing in one God and praying to him, fighting in the cause of God” (not blowing yourself up) obeying your parents, giving to the poor 1/5 although some try to interperate it differently which is even more than tithing people, in short the ten commandments but even by believing in God and leading a good life. So basically with Islam’s standard if you believe in one God and live a life of giving you are in Heaven. I actually read the Quran before and without anyone’s “help” so I would know this. I admit there are added traditions in the religion and this is why I never delved too far in to sects for fear I would aquire a human tradition at the time when I found it and believed it. I still hold that the basic truth is loving God and your neighbour, not anything about believing in Christ. xHWA, You mean Jesus Christ died for you not God. Excuse my low amount of knollege on this area but to many Christians is this one and the same? Sorry Mike for that post as I felt I needed to clarify some things. I top this off with a quote

    Say not, ‘I have found the truth,’ but rather, ‘I have found a truth.’
    Kahlil Gibran

    That would have to be one of the most inspiring quotes I ever read.

  • Observer says:

    I will have to agree with Todd on this one. All of “traditional Christianity” cannot be lumped into one pile. There are many, many sincere people in TC circles who do try to follow in the path that Jesus pointed to with His life, including loving their neighbor. I know many such people. There are others who just love the form and ritual, or having fellowship with “good” people, or just want “fire insurance”. It is not up to us to judge anyone else’s motives. Only God can see our hearts. Everyone is capable of doing good and of doing bad. As humans, though, our good and bad are both motivated by selfishness until our minds can be renewed by God’s Spirit. I will leave it there.

    “I say God loves you, but He didn’t die for you.” …. I’m not sure what WO was meaning here. Jesus is our passover Lamb. He died for the whole world. The fact that a person rejects the Passover does not negate the fact that His blood was shed for them. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. We must receive this gift of forgiveness of sin, in the way that God commands, so that God can dwell in us. He will not live in sin. This gift will be offered to everyone, in God’s perfect time, but we are given the choice to receive or reject it. God does not force His will on anyone. This is perfect love.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Observer, clearly Traditional Christianity has many sects and denominations along with different ideas. In every belief there are people who are sincere in living life based on them. With the part about God not diing, I was pointing out the fact that people mention God and Jesus in such a way that it is impossible to know who they are referring to. It was a technical error as there is a difference between the Eternal God and Christ who did die, not God.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    In the time that I’ve seen Aggie’s comments, this is the first time I recall a particular rant against what might be considered “traditional christianity”. Aggie’s wrath has been directly much more toward non-traditional christianity — Armstrongism and in particular Weinlandism.

    WO seems to have influences from Islam, and perhaps Weinlandism appeals more with its recent unitarian aspects as compared to Armstrong’s binary god and traditional christianity’s trinitarianism. While he’s reluctant to get involved in a muslim sect, he falls for a christian sect.

    This thread certainly has been interesting but it has veered well off topic to several different topics. I am disabling further commenting on this thread, but have a new post up to read. Hopefully the commenting on it will stay more on topic.