General Discussion on Weinland, Pt 1

Back on Don’t Drink the Flavor Aid, we’ve had some general off-topic discussions.  And I must admit to being guilty of participating.  I’d like to keep discussion on other posts on-topic, but don’t necessarily want to shut down continuing debates on certain topics such as deaths of 5 ministers, etc.

So that’s what this post is for — general discussions relating to Weinland.  Please continue to play nice, no ad hominem attacks etc.

Happy commenting.

WO posted the following on the other post:

DRMR, everything has to happen in less than 3 years. Examples of failure would include:
1. Fifth trumpet not sounding by the last six months. Then I’de know something was up.
2. Ron saying something would happen and that not happening.
3. Ron not getting killed when he’s suppposed to.
4. Russia and China not coming together to destroy mankind by last few months, 3 at that as this was stated in the book. It was stated that that there would be fighting between Europe and Russia annd China for a few months before last battle.
While I don’t believe this would happen , the above are a few things that would make Ron to be proven false.

[Thanks to DRMR for being the first to go with my new flow and replying here]


  • DRMR says:


    Your number 2 example of a failure was “Ron saying something would happen that didn’t happen”.

    That is exactly what I’m getting at. How long would the five ministers remain alive before you

    would say “This ain’t happening” ?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    DRMR, there are other things that need to happen. I don’t know how long with the ministers, I really don’t. However I know that when the trumpets sound I can know that the rest would occur.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I’m moving Weinland Observer’s comment over here, and deleting it from the other post.

    Weinland Observer said:

    J, the prophesy that will be tested first is Ron saying something would happen and then for it not to happen. The economy improving as it is now that will begin to go down can not improve again. If it does, fill in the blank. By saying something will happen I mean him saying it Will happen, not referring to times when he speculates or contemplates. As Observer stated, it is clear that Russia and China come together a month and a year and a day after the fifth trumpet. Assuming this could happen in the last week as Ron stated in a sermon that I did not listen to but read Mike’s post on, this would have to take place some time before 2.5 years in the tribulation. However if it didn’t other things would be under way. I have stated in the past though that I believe Ron hinted at the sixth trumpet sounding in the last 180 days when talking about how this was possible through time, times, and half a time.
    One question for you J. Considering the fact that you believe Ron is false, do you see me as someone who would continue with the truth of God after Ron s proven wrong. I hope you understand the reason why I’m stating it in this way, not because I believe Ron is wrong. Also, in your view which organizations are God’s Church? Just curious.

  • J says:

    “One question for you J. Considering the fact that you believe Ron is false, do you see me as someone who would continue with the truth of God after Ron s proven wrong. I hope you understand the reason why I’m stating it in this way, not because I believe Ron is wrong.”

    That is a difficult question to answer because to you “God’s truth” and “Ron” are the same thing. In your perspective, what is the difference between the two? For you, where does God’s truth stop and Ron start? But if I interpret your question properly, then I believe you would leave Ron’s church because you are young, and not as invested as someone who’s been in there and given thousands of dollars for years.

    “Also, in your view which organizations are God’s Church? Just curious.”

    I believe it is arrogance and pride to presume mine is, yours is, ours is, yours isn’t, only mine is, etc., so I do not make those conclusions. All I hope for is that where I am is correct. I am not God, nor would I speak for Him in this matter, so I cannot make those judgments.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    J, are you aware that Armstrong stated many times that there was only one church. I just want to know whether you think that too was slightly aragant. Also, I’m just curious what you think about the scripture I will build my church. Are you stating that there is one true church but that you believe it is not for people to decide where they think it is or to say that the one they are in is the true church. Just wondering what you think of this. P.S. I notice we’re getting somewhere when we don’t attack our views on Weinland. As long as Mike doesn’t delete these posts, I’m okay with that. For now there is no point in trying to convince me Ron is false and vice versa. That’s the plain and simple fact of the matter.

  • Mark says:

    Seeing how this is a blog and not a forum, I doubt much traffic happens at any but the most recent posts. That’s OK, we are all learning right?

    I contend that WO is NOT a 15 year old Weinland wannabe. I don’t know who he is, but I would predict AND/OR prophecy that he isn’t who he claims. His posts smack of someone trying to disguise their true identity.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Back about a year and a half ago, Ironwolf had such a discussion series, around 16 posts with around 200 comment on each post as I recall. Last I checked those posts are still online but comments are closed. I had thought about setting up a forum here but think I’ll keep with this approach at least for now.

  • J says:

    WO, I don’t worship Armstrong. I don’t hold everything he has ever said as written in stone. Surely you can understand that as you cherrypick what from Ron’s sermons and writings to believe and what to disregard as “predictions”. Anyway, I have seen the way churches have been run, both by a pastor general and by a council. With the way humans operate, I’ll trust a council every time, as there are checks and balances. “Benevolent dictator” just is not possible in this world. There are too many temptations.

    Again, I don’t believe God cares about physical entities (the physical corporations such as UCG, PKG, LCG, etc), but what is in the heart of the brethren. “The Church” is a concept that transcends man-made institutions. At the end of the day, it’s just a name on a building. What matters is faith and works of its members. In my opinion, the core differences between the main COGs like UCG, LCG are trivial, not that important in the scheme of things. What’s more important, obeying God’s laws or squabbling over whether or not to classify Armstrong as Elijah, or to label yourself as Philadelphia? I do not believe ANY church is 100.00% correct, no matter how you cut it. There is always room for improvement. (That’s where Christ’s return comes in) PKG, on the other hand, is way way different in its core beliefs.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “PKG, on the other hand, is way way different in its core beliefs.”

    Correct. PKG has eschewed the church’s tradition semi-Arian binitarianism for unitarianism instead.

    WO, have you looked into attending a Unitarian Universalist church? They’re pretty open to various practices of their members (and would be OK, I think, with your sabbath-keeping and dietary self-restrictions), they’re unitarians (don’t believe in the divinity of the christological figure), and best of all, you don’t have to pay to get in, or to be baptized.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I have always respected Unitarians. I have never been keen on churches and unless God called me I wouldn’t have known God’s church. As far as a religion, I respect what Unitarianism stands for. If anything, they have kept the oneness of God. Anything away from that leads to deception. I am convinced Ron is a prophet. If not, I don’t know if I’d stay in COG ideas as I wouldn’t know where to turn. I’d go back to the full Golden Rule as truth which is love God and your neighbour, as basic as that. Ironwolf forum, those were the days. I never posted but I would read the site every day. I do hope this turns in to the same thing. It will be hard to beat the 200+ comment posts on Mike’s old blog. I’ll still hold that Observer, Dill, and myself contributed to this the most. Whenever one of us said something, many other comments followed.
    DRMR, are you the same person who posted as RKPDRMR?

    I am not older than 15 Mark. Mike, do you think Mark’s claim is possible. Just curious as to how many people believe I am 15.
    As for disguising my identity, it is just that I can’t say too much. I gave enough info that giving a little more would allow anyone to find me especially if it was someone who knew me. Based on a comment somewhere else I feel people would find me if they could. I can’t trust everyone with everything here and I believe that Mike helped me with this to some extent as well. He has a tendancy to delet comments by those who want to give too much info about themselves. Just a random question Mike. Did you think the post selections you deleted that Observer and I wrote were an attempt for us to meet up? I hope you realize that this wasn’t and couldn’t have been the case. I know what info is not for posting online.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Still in a relatively good mood so I moved the following comment over:

    Mark said:

    “2. Ron saying something would happen and that not happening.”

    WO- you must have been sleeping through 2008. Ron said many things that didn’t happen. The whole point in his outlandish, brash claims was that it would prove his critics wrong. His “prophecies” didn’t happen and his critics are still critics (and MUCH stronger, including Mike who has a wealth of information you don’t like). If Ron were truly a prophet, he wouldn’t be making excuses! God would be on HIS side! You (apparently) believe a LIE. Unfortunately, though, ss long as Ron keeps feeding you his typical excuses, you will believe him.

    “WO – I do still believe in ‘the top down’ government.”

    I am so, so sorry you still believe that. Hopefully with your experience you will eventually change that viewpoint. Top down only works with PERFECT leaders. Do you know any humans who are perfect? No, because humans are really fallen and imperfect, you need additional imperfect counsel to hold a leader accountable. Without that, you will be setting yourself up for more dictator religious zealots like Ron Weinland. Come on!

  • Mark says:

    “Still in a relatively good mood so I moved the following comment over:”

    Your new “rules” are tiring. Too bad, I think you had a good thing going on DDTFA. This heavy handed moderation, as a result of a recent *temporary* flurry of activity, will not be conducive to me continuing to post. You can’t judge the growth of your blog after a sample of only one week. I tolerated your deletions of anonymous posts, but I will not continue here if you conntinue to correct us all the time.

  • DRMR says:

    Weinland Observer,

    You asked if I am RKPDRMR.

    I am. In Mikes’ topic/blog, entitled “Mockers and Observers”, I decided to change my name to something shorter, and on a post I made there, I gave my name as “RK (no longer RKPDRMR)” just so it would be known I wasn’t trying to “hide” behind two different names. And then when Mike changed from DDTFA to this new site, I was thinking that “RK” is too short, hence DRMR.

    Don’t mean to give a long expanation over something trivial, but like I said, just want to be sure it doesn’t look like I’m trying to hide behind different names.

    And since I’m here, WO, I’ve gotta tell you, I can understand Mark saying he has doubts that your 15.

    And I’m not saying your being untruthful, I’m just saying I can understand someone having doubts. I have my own doubts.

    I suppose you can take that as a compliment, because you speak (or write) and express yourself very well, and you
    seen very intelligent for a 15 year old.

    You just come off as someone who has had a lot more experience with biblical and religious topics than the average 15 year old, and it kind of belies your spelling ability, as well.

    So take this in a good way, because that’s the way it’s intended. It just seems like that’s what your writing reflects.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mark, don’t know what to say. If you think I’m heavy handed, you haven’t dealt with some of the other bloggers that I have. The anonymous comments on the other blog were truly confusing and led to complaints from others.

    I had complaints about the off-topic comments on the other post, so I try to come up with a solution to make everyone happy. I created this post, and then I put links throughout the comments section of the other posts pointing here, and then I give further latitude by moving comments rather than abruptly dropping the delete hammer. In this situation, a truly heavy handed person would have simply deleted your posts. Don’t know how I could have handled it any better, perhaps you can give me the benefit of your superior blogging experience on how to keep everybody perfectly happy.

  • jack635 says:

    Hi Mike
    I think it is impossible for you to keep everybody perfectly happy all of the time. But without control, there is chaos

    stercus accidit

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    LOL, Jack. Had to Google that one. Not every day that I learn some French Latin 😉

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “I’d go back to the full Golden Rule as truth which is love God and your neighbour, as basic as that.”

    What’s wrong with living the full Golden Rule now, kid? I don’t recall Ron ever saying the Golden Rule was stupid. And if you don’t want to go to a Unitarian church or service, at least contact a Unitarian pastor in your area. Talk to them, if you can’t talk to a PKG elder.

    “Did you think the post selections you deleted that Observer and I wrote were an attempt for us to meet up? I hope you realize that this wasn’t and couldn’t have been the case.”

    So then what was the point of the exchange? It certainly seemed like luring (on Observer’s part) to me. Especially with all the love-bombing he was doing of you.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Gavin has some interesting posts up about where to find ‘the church of god’ today on Ambassador Watch. Just thought I would throw that out there for WO.

  • Observer says:

    Hi WO: They have been keeping you busy and on your toes! Great practice for what is coming. Perhaps you will have the job of recording all the history,etc for the milenium. I will try to listen to some of the sermons. I think you would really be encouraged by reading HWA’s autobiography. Part 1 helps you to know and understand the man and to see why God would choose him for the role he played. The second part is more about the growth of the Church and the commission, sometimes repetitious, but quite informative. Enjoy your day.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Here is another resource for WCG history. It’s in HTML, not PDF, so you shouldn’t have a problem reading it.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Moved this over from the other thread as being off topic.

    Weinland Observer said:

    Kirrily, I understand your position clearly. Searching truth, keeping an open mind, and doing what we think is right from what we know is all we can do. Sadly not many do this. Most don’t. Most people don’t even know why they believe what they believe. If I eat toast for breakfast because my mom always gave it to me, I would continue and if someone were to ask me “Why do you eat toast every morning?” I would probably say that it was because I liked it and that my mom gave it to me eveery morning. I have reespect for those who convert from one religion to another because it is an indication that they are doing all a human being can do, searching for the truth. Okay maybe I thought what you said indicated that the board was right. Sorry about that. As for deleted sermons, I think that when a new sermon is quickly uploaded after it is given the previous one ens up being deleted and is then reposted. Then at some point in time, the weekly sermon is eddited with announcements being taken out. You really do impress me on how you kept your life together even as you went from one belief to the other. For one thing, you seam to have a good job from what you posted. I know you don’t ageree with this but generally I believe you are an example of how not to keep life on hold. Keep living. I don’t know too much about anyone here but from what you post it is clear you do a good job at it!

  • Whisper says:

    Russia & China coming togethor?
    Whew, they better get “a-move-on” then as they have years of past political turmoil to overcome and that don’t happen over night. The 2 countries have totaly different political fronts going in 2 totaly different directions, they seem worlds apart to me. Is thier alliance to come about like a puppy-love whirlwind marriage? Wham-Bamb we are allies and lets go to war? Oh please, this is political naivete.

    10 Nations in Europe are to take over with a common, man of sin, leader and go to war with Russia/China?
    10 Nations minus all the nations that are to be destroyed by God (France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, Italy, Ireland and Great Britian) leave little to choose from. If Germany (per old and tired HWA theology) is supposed to lead this circus it, and the others, had best get a move on as they are worlds apart from one another. The European Union is a disorganized mess with nationalism and antagonism seperating the nations involved…
    They are supposed to rise up as a common entity and they are so very far apart with no “leader” apparent and the Catholic Church staying out of the politics when, per HWA, they are supposed to be in the thick of it. Europe is not even near being ready to be a unified political entity and light years apart from being a military entitiy on world domination.
    Shouldn’t we be seeing the actual coming togethor of this monster now? Seriously it will take years to fully accomplish (and that time perior is fast tracking mind you) with this un-holy leader rising NOW?
    Seriously, this leader is gonna be late to his own party.

    Ol HWA, and now Ron, seem to be very naivete about political / military movements and history.
    Of course HWA was a past master of not understanding people or politics as he made oh so many flat, and embarassing, preditions on the historical events of the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s that not only did not come to pass they did not even come close. Germany will beat Russia in WWII, whew…
    HWA was one of a kind, but then so is Ron, Witness from the Book of Revelation, whew…


  • Weinland Observer says:

    I read the first article. I would have believed it right away. I don’t think many do, but does anyone know that the Quran accuses the Jews and Christian religions of breaking the covenant after it has been confirmed? I did believe the Quran to be perfect and only now believe the Bible is God’s word after understanding it. If someone told me the Bible was perfect two years ago I would have laughed in my head if not out loud. However a couple of articles by Armstrong convinced me how much the Bible was from God.
    Also, it is said that Mohammed actually had contact with the Nestorians. I would enjoy reading more about God’s church in a historical perspective as I would like to see how it was organized and what happened in various parts of the world. Armstrong has a book on the subject but it is in PDF unfortunately. So much to read, so little time.

    Observer, recording the history would be interesting for sure. I always wonder whether God is going to use the writing, research, analysis, and even developing music ability along with my math skills to mold and fashion me for a purpose. I also want to share something else here although I can’t say it completely and would prefer people not ask too much about it. I stated a few posts back that I wasn’t born in Canada. I was born somewhere in Europe in a small country. I have been to this country and it has various religions who actually co-exist very well. I know the language as well and actually sent cog-pkg an email offering to translate the literature. I got a reply that maybe not right now. I know that Paul visited a city of where the nationality lives. However, I don’t know whether anyone from that area has ever been called or not. I wonder whether I will be used for a purpose there in the future. I know one thing and it is that God will take care of me. I also hope I live on in to the new age and I know that if I do which is likely as God calls new people today to live on in to a new age if they remain commited. I know that if I do, someone will find me and help me out. I need not be worried about that though. The 144000 will know what God knows as they wil be in God’s family as God beings. One thing that I need to pray for as well is that if possible, I can be with my family through all this. It might not happen, but as you said Observer that it would indeed be a blessing if they were called and if God kept them around to protect me.

  • Observer says:

    Hi Observer: Lots of interesting possibilities and perhaps that is why your family came to Canada. As Mordecai said to Esther (slightly changed : ) “Who knoweth whether thou art come to CANADA for such a time as this? (Esther 4 :14) Her “family” (Jews) were saved because of her obedience. Take care

  • xHWA says:

    “Again, I don’t believe God cares about physical entities (the physical corporations such as UCG, PKG, LCG, etc), but what is in the heart of the brethren. “The Church” is a concept that transcends man-made institutions. At the end of the day, it’s just a name on a building. What matters is faith and works of its members. In my opinion, the core differences between the main COGs like UCG, LCG are trivial, not that important in the scheme of things. What’s more important, obeying God’s laws or squabbling over whether or not to classify Armstrong as Elijah, or to label yourself as Philadelphia? I do not believe ANY church is 100.00% correct, no matter how you cut it. There is always room for improvement. (That’s where Christ’s return comes in) PKG, on the other hand, is way way different in its core beliefs.”

    Hear! Hear!
    WELL spoken!

  • xHWA says:

    Answers to WO’s questions found on the last thread:

    “From what you stated churches and other groups are exempt from taxes but only if they are organized in a certain way.”

    “So because cog-pkg has no board now but still has a corporation which Ron himself manages, are tithes not exempt from taxes?”
    The structure of the corporation just has to meet the guidelines set in the by-laws of the organization. The IRS doesn’t care how you go about things, so long as you incorporate as a 501c3 (I over simplify, but that’s the tall and short of it). So, yes, tithes to PKG are tax deductable.
    You can have a church with no corporation at all. That’s perfectly fine, too. Take the Belleville COG, for example. For years they had no corporation, they were just a church (in the spiritual sense). They eventually did incorporate because it made things easier when they hosted a Feast or what not.

    “Also, what happened to the site from 2000 onward?”
    From 2000 onward Ron had his family and another hosting agency take care of the website.

    “When did news watch stop being published?”
    Unfortunately, I do not know that. I’m rather curious myself now. Does anyone know?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Observer, now that I think about it I see how God may have been working with my mind for my whole life before deciding to call me. Some of the things God had done to my mind were the very same things I might have just about bragged about a couple of years ago. Maybe I am to read the Armstrong Biography now as it is a great way to learn about life. The world was a different place at the time in many ways, but the way he achieved success is still the same. One thing I learned when I had started reading the biography was to follow Armstrong’s example and take a good career test to see where I fit. Apparently I fit in to the business organizational specialist category. You nailed it right on the dot when you stated this website is good training for the future. Soon I will be able to be used by God to share the truth with people around me and won’t need to resort to going online to talk about it. I listened to Wayne’s Last Great Day sermon from 2008 and he stated the sermon was an outline of how one could share the truth with someone. Maybe you have more experience with this and have other suggestions, but from what I have learned from sermons I need to ask God for the best way to share the truth. This will include what is happening and why followed by the truth I have learned. I may have to say less than otherwise if someone isn’t interested and would then answer questions with what God has given. The process would be as it is on this site only on a different scale, possibly larger. The only difference is that I may not have a bible to go to or online information to recommend when things get bad. I also know that although I can’t find online material at some times, God is the one who will give the belief in the truth to those that he will and that by their faith and obedience to what they have learned they will be saved. I think of the millions that will be called and I often feel that those called after the fifth trumpet which is the majority of those that will be called, they will be called by hearing about the times we are in from someone who knew the truth, someone who God gave the truth through someone else, and continuous spreading from word of mouth. i believe that my life will probably change from what it is now to a life of living in harder conditions to some degree or another and sharing the truth will become a part of it. It’s amazing that all I have said will be behind us in less than 3 years! The fast, the very thing I used to be convinced Ron was false is now the very thing I am thankfull for. I know that after Oct. 10, I will grow that much more in the appreciation of this.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Observer says:
    July 15, 2009 at 09:41

    Hi Observer: Lots of interesting possibilities and perhaps that is why your family came to Canada. As Mordecai said to Esther (slightly changed : ) “Who knoweth whether thou art come to CANADA for such a time as this? (Esther 4 :14) Her “family” (Jews) were saved because of her obedience.

    # “This first powerful event of the Seventh Seal will result in wide-spread destruction over the United States and beyond her border into Canada. The destruction in Canada will be less, but she will experience repercussions from what will happen in the U.S.; because she is a neighbor, as well as a prophetic brother.” [pp. 117 – 118, 2008: God’s Final Witness]

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I remember the passage. Canada will also be conquered at some point as all Israael will, but maybe the destruction is greater in the US because more people live there. Plus the town I live in is smaller than other cities, so I should be safer. Only God knows, and I’m not worrying. I’m living life God’s way and not keeping it on hold as I stated before.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Weinland Observer says:
    July 15, 2009 at 12:11
    “I know that after Oct. 10, I will grow that much more in the appreciation of this.

    Daniel said, on March 19th, 2008 at 1:36 am:
    “The next time I will post something on this website April 17th- 23rd if we are still capable. And everyone can ridicule me if it doesn’t go down, but it will happen. Those blogs I left were not just for WW, but it was an attempt to begin to get people to start repenting.”

    Next year this time, we’ll be posting your words again, WO; here’s hoping you don’t disappear, the way Daniel did.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Hi Mark,

    I understand your concern about me still believing ‘govt from the head down’.

    I agree, no human being is perfect.

    I think what got me to believe that, is the HOPE that God WAS working through one ‘church’ (I agree with J – the ‘church’ is made up of PEOPLE, the PEOPLE are the CHURCH) and God ‘called’ me to the correct ‘church’ – that being PKG.

    You see, looking deep within myself (ouch) I realised the following:-

    1. I don’t understand the Bible – AT ALL (ouch).
    2. Therefore, do not know how to STUDY the Bible.
    3. Having someone LEAD you is easy – well, THEY understand the Bible and can teach you! (Hey, wonder if they’ll write ‘Understanding the Bible for Dummies!!).
    4. You loose responsibility, because you can be obedient to a MAN, who SAYS they are speaking for God (gee, seeing it written here like this – wow. *slaps own forhead with disgust*)

    I know that when Jesus FINALLY comes back, He will be leading ‘from the top down’.

    Also, the scripture about ‘Heaven & Hell shall not prevail against my church’ or something similar. I used to think that meant a literal body of PEOPLE, a GROUP of People. But, if the ‘church’ is the people, it could be ANYONE God ‘gave the truth’ to. (Whatever the hell the ‘truth’ is).

    Mark – As you can see from my writing, I am sure you realise why I do not like to think on these things too much.

    To quote Homer Simpson – ‘My brain hurts’.


    All, as you can see, I have no hesitation in pouring out my thoughts and heart to you all – even if I do come accross stupid!! I mean it, I don’t like reading the Bible, I just DON’T GET IT. When GTA then PKG came along, all the lights went off for me, and I understood like I had never understood anything before. I still have all that – but do not know what to do now.

    Some say ‘Just God and Me’ – but how do I know if I have God, if I THOUGHT He was leading me into the ‘truth’ (ie. GTA then PKG) and they ended up being false. Why would God do that? Moulding and fashioning me perhaps? If so, for what??

    You see, I remember a prayer that I have prayed since I was a little girl – I used to pray “Please God, DO NOT let me become one of the decieved” – so I take it kind of personally that I have been involved in HEAPS of different relegions that were obviously so wrong (I guess Mark, that says it – they were all lead by HUMANS).

    Oh dear, anyway, my brain is really hurting now!!


  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Weinland Observer said: You nailed it right on the dot when you stated this website is good training for the future. Soon I will be able to be used by God to share the truth with people around me and won’t need to resort to going online to talk about it.

    So far, you aren’t doing a very good job at sharing the truth. You’re among people who are willing to consider evidence and require it, yet you provide none. Saying that we should believe because of the 50th “truth” doesn’t cut it. Particularly when “2008 GFW” is compared to reality and Ronnie’s credibility is viewed in light of his actions which directly contradict repeated promises that he would not do exactly what he’s doing. Parroting Ronnie’s lame explanations for his failed prophecies and failure to keep his promises isn’t going to work.

  • todd says:

    In my opinion, there is a lot we will not understand about the bible probably till we go to our final home and ask our Lord.
    But, while we are here, the only way to not be decieved is to know God’s Word as it is written in the bible.
    I’ve read cover to cover a couple times….and just the new testament several more. Before I start I pray that the words be put in my heart even if I don’t understand it. Sometimes just reading one story at a time to take in the full context…sometimes just reading a few scriptures at a time.
    I pay particular attention to whenever Jesus was speaking, (red letter edition) what he is saying, and who he is saying it to. This gave me a completely different view of who he is, how to treat others, how much I need Him and how much God loves all of us!

    I pray this helps.

  • jack635 says:


    That is the best way to do it. I’m glad you have a red letter edition. The words of Jesus are the “One True Church”. I’ll take the read letters over what Ronald Weinland says (or any other preacher) any day.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Todd, I commend you for doing this: reading the whole bible. Not to many do that or have finished it, myself included. One of these days I need to do just that, not only open the Bible but read it from cover to cover. I have great respect for anyone who believes a religion that reads its whole book. Most prefer to read/listen to what others say: (from publications, local teacher of their faith, others who know a little more than they do)

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mike, I can see why you feel like I am not sharing the truth here. There really isn’t too much to share here as most here know a lot about what Ron said although they don’t believe it. When the time comes it will be easier as things will happen and I will be able to tell people what I know about what is happening.
    As for the evidence now: I believe it is evidence, you don’t, and very little ccan be done to change it.

  • J says:

    When the time comes it will be easier as things will happen and I will be able to tell people what I know about what is happening.

    When the time comes it will be easier as things will have not happened and I will be able to tell you what I know about what is not happening.

  • J says:

    -How is Ron a prophet?
    -Because he was given the 50th truth.
    -Why was Ron given the 50th truth?
    -Because he is a prophet.
    -How is Ron a prophet?
    -Because he was given the 50th truth.
    -Why was Ron given the 50th truth?
    -Because he is a prophet.
    -How is Ron a prophet?….

    Makes sense to some people. 😀

  • Observer says:

    Just dropping by to say “hello” WO. Hi Todd. I’m glad you both love the Bible. That’s something that all three of us can agree on. A lot of what Jesus said “in red” in the NT was written” in black” in the OT. It is the two parts together that make up the entire book but when Paul spoke to Timothy about all scripture being God breathed and profitable for doctrine and reproof, he was referring to the OT because the NT had not yet been written. It amazes me then when some people place the NT on a higher plain than the OT. What can be higher than God breathed? But WO you are right when you say that most people just want to be told what the Bible says rather than to read it and prayerfully study it for themselves. That way one man’s interpretation is passed down through generations and even through ,so called, Bible schools. I have witnessed it again and again. Churches become social clubs, entertainment centers and worse … much worse.
    On another note, WO, I see you are still being questioned about your age. LOL Take it as a compliment. I have raised 5 children and none of them could have carried on a conversation in this manner like you have. You show a lot of maturity for one so young and you don’t “cave” when you are ganged up on. My youngest is just a year older than you are, not quite 17, and will be off to another province for University in the Fall. (A scary thought for her mother) I wish she could live at home and attend University here but they don’t offer the program she wants to take. Anyway, I wish she had your good sense. I would be less concerned about her. BTW, I have never doubted that you are 15 as you say, why would you lie about that, and I didn’t think you were a girl either. : )

  • Weinland Observer says:

    J, I had to reread one of my comments three times before I realized how funny what I said was. I think this blog is improving my comedy skills. If they taught commedy in school I’d be set for an A+ lol.

    I still find it neat how Ron managed to basically freeze the board. It reminds me of how Canadian Prime Minister Stephan Harper called up the Governor General to prevent a three-party alliance from forming a government and overthrowing his minority government. Eventually the opposition chose a new leader and the plan never started up. I guess it was easier for Ron than Harper though because Ron could re-organize his church while Harper would have lost his government.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Observer out of curiousity how many Canadians are in God’s church approximately? What about Atlantic Canada?

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “That way one man’s interpretation is passed down through generations”

    Herbert W Armstrong

    ” and even through ,so called, Bible schools.”

    Ambassador College

    And keep up the love-bombing, it’s more proof for the authorities.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Oh, and BTW, there are somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10 and 20 members (erring towards the low side) of CoG-PKG (Ronald Weinland’s church) in Canada. Probably at most two or three per province. That’s just speculation based on traffic statistics and emails received, and reading between the lines for 2008, prior to the failure of the first timeline; I am absolutely certain the number in Canada has decreased since then.

    Most exiting PKG members who stay with Armstrongism tend to either get reabsorbed back into the splinter they left Ron for in the first place, or they gravitate to either UCG or LCG.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    They left FOR Ron ugh

  • Weinland Observer says:

    AggieAtheist , I managed to prove what the above that you stated is true. As for the lovebombing business, that’s false. What’s with you mentioning the government here? I would prefer direct answers.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Thanks for the extra info. How do you know all this? You sound like some sort of webhosting company insider. I’m sure there’s a much simpler and commonplace answer though.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Weinland Observer, on the other post you said:
    Mike, since repent means think differently it is clear Ron changed his perception on government. As for the bylaws, they did say something else. This is where Ron’s repentence comes in. I will certainly listen to the Feb 5 sermon. I wonder why Ron doesn’t have some of the stuff like these sermons on the website. I’m just as puzzled as to why he didn’t keep newswatch archives on the site.

    I looked up the definitions for “repent” and “regret”


    to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of): He repented after his thoughtless act.

    to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one’s life for the better; be penitent.


    to think of with a sense of loss: to regret one’s vanished youth

    Didn’t see anything about “thinking differently”. Regretting is just as much “thinking differently” as is is repenting. Or put another way, every one who repents also thinks differently, but not everyone who thinks differently has repented.

    Ron thought differently about the bylaws but it wasn’t repentance. It was regret.

  • xHWA says:

    If “repent” = “to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct”, then I saw no evidence of that at all.
    True repentance should be obvious.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “What’s with you mentioning the government here?”

    You’re underage, Observer is clearly very closely involved with the church, and he’s attempting to lure you into a physical meetup.

    As for Observer and his love-bombing (Did you bother to read the link I provided to the explanation of what that is, on the old blog? If not, here it is again, PLEASE read this.), if he continues to persist in same I will contact the RCMP district headquarters that he falls under the jurisdiction of.

    Or, depending on my mood, and if you continue to refuse to tell your parents about your involvement with the church, I will contact Family Services.

    Direct enough answer for you?

    As for where I get my information, I ran the Weinland Watch site in 2008, and I got the information from exactly where I stated I did in my previous comment, “That’s just speculation based on traffic statistics and emails received, and reading between the lines for 2008, prior to the failure of the first timeline.” It’s not rocket science, WO, it’s false prophecy and I (and most of the other ex-members posting here) have seen more years of it than you’ve been alive.

    I know teenagers hate listening to adults (which is why Observer is sucking up to you so much, although you can’t see that), but we ARE in a position to save you from going down a very dark road in your life; and I for one, will stop at nothing to try and make you see that you have your whole life ahead of you, decades upon decades of it (you’ll probably live longer than my generation anyway what with all the medical advances). You’re way too young to bookend your life with a prophecy that has already come and gone, and been proven beyond all shadow of a doubt as false.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    And I’m probably sending the kid from the frying pan into the fire with this admission, but BOTH United Church of God and Living Church of God have large member bases in the Atlantic regions; I would speculate that almost 80% of the church there went with either of those two groups, after the changes. There is a lot of drift and attrition between the two groups, and they keep joint Feasts together.

    I know I’m going to get a lot of flack for this, but WO, please consider contacting a UCG congregation in your area. If you read I Survived Armstrongism at all, you will know that I think UCG is as close to the way WCG was, pre-changes, as it is physically possible for them to be; I also definitely do NOT view this as a good thing!

    But even if you joined UCG (while it would be a bad thing), it would still be 100% better than you trying to meet up with one of the elders in Weinland’s group, or having any involvement with PKG at all.

    Have you ever watched Beyond Today?

  • WO commented, “…One thing I learned when I had started reading the biography was to follow Armstrong’s example and take a good career test to see where I fit.

    Has HWA become your idol? Is it Ron Weinland? Or, is God still number 1 in your life – and do you live by the examples of men or GOD. I am confused; it appears that you put much more emphasis on your love for Ron and Herb, than you place on God.

    “Apparently I fit in to the business organizational specialist category. You nailed it right on the dot when you stated this website is good training for the future. Soon I will be able to be used by God to share the truth with people around me and won’t need to resort to going online to talk about it.”

    Ron has said many times that he is the “teacher” and that in his organization one must be taught. You have a desire to teach. I don’t know if you realize it, but if you continue to have this attitude of wanting to teach, then you will be in constant conflict with Ron. Ron likes power and control. It appears you do also. There is an old saying that if there is more than one chief, then there is too many. Ron doesn’t like to share, and he doesn’t want to hear your point of view. This is Ron’s ball game and not yours. He wants tithe slaves of which you don’t even have a job. Ron would tell you to take a seat, shut-up, and learn to be a disciple which according to his definition means “student.” If you’re lucky, maybe Ron will put you in charge of parking at the feast of Tabernacles. Do you like titles for yourself? Maybe Ron could even give you a title with a name badge.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Weinlandtranscripted said:

    Well, just read it above! WOW – you have absolutely nailed it there.

    It still hurts to admit it to myself, but I did indeed worship RW and NOT God.

    WO, you really wouldn’t see it – I definately DID NOT see in when I was in there, it is only when you leave that you discover this truth!! (An actual truth, not a mythical one!).

    There is ONLY one thing I know FOR SURE since leaving – and that is I DID NOT put my trust in God (again, I THOUGHT I was!! But I WASN’T).

    Boy Weinlandtranscripted : you have really hit the spot there with me.

    Especially re: Titles – I had completely forgotten about that aspect of Ron!! YES, YES, YES – that is EXACTLY what O & WO are both doing here – trying to TEACH US!! Ron said all the time about us being STUDENTS – particularly the newbies. I don’t think Ron would be very happy about it at all if he knew.

    God, it is SO GOOD you reminded me of that!! That is where MOST OF MY MINDSET came from!! Being OBEDIENT – shut up and just be a STUDENT!! It’s just hit me like a tonne of bricks – that’s how he gets you to SUBMIT and not ask questions. (Ie. Duet. testing of a prophet – if you ask that question, you have a bad attitude and are not called by God!!! What #$%^ BS!!). Hello!!!!! (*again slaps own forehead with hand in disgust*).

    It hurts when you finally wake up to yourself, and admit the TRUTH that I ALLOWED myself to be ‘led’ by a false prophet (putting it nicely).

    Thank you SO MUCH for your post. I hope you keep posting.

    Your post has really been an epiphany for me today – THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.


  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Ron said all the time about us being STUDENTS – particularly the newbies. I don’t think Ron would be very happy about it at all if he knew.”

    17:22-18:38 March 15, 2008 sermon, Ronald Weinland:

    “1290 days is upon us this next week. 1290 days before Jesus Christ returns and 1260 days real close behind that. And how do you think God Almighty looks upon what’s getting ready to take place on this earth? And then he sees some out here who are doing bad things in a bad way as a reflection upon him! Upon the name of his son! Upon the name of his church! Upon the name of his servants who are serving out here! Upon the name of the books and so forth and bringing along perversion and distorted things and things that are not sound. None of you have any reason to be mentioning my name, the name of the church of god, the name of the two books, or let alone putting the books on your site! Or anything like that! You do not represent the church of god to other people out there in the world! And you don’t realize you might have a desire being able to communicate with other people that maybe think you’re helping others and some of you have tried to do that. You think you’re helping other people. And sometimes you’re helping some other beings who are inspiring and working through other people to infiltrate to come on in to do things that are not healthy. You don’t know what you’re messing around with out here. I know some of these situations. I know some of these people out here. And you don’t. And so you know. Just a strong admonition.”

    And then all the pro-Weinland ranters on the blogs just disappeared…..And the only ones who’ve been back since, are the ones who’ve woken up.

  • Observer says:

    WO: Aggie is way off on member statistics. I don’t know numbers for Canada. I know how many are in Atlantic Canada. I will just say that the number has increased by 400% after the first timeline and none of the members were ever part of WCG or any of its splinters. No one has left after becoming a part of PKG.
    Aggie may be right about us being on this site. I have downloaded March 15/08 sermon and will listen to it this morning. I do not want to be presumptuous. If you don’t here from me again, take care, keep studying to show yourself approved unto God and remember that it is God, and not man, that has begun the good work in you and He is faithful to complete it. You will be in my prayers.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    AggieAtheist, I did tell my parents about Ron. They don’t mind me looking him up. Stop with the alligations that I’m trying to meet Observer. It couldn’t happen, it wouldn’t happen, and an online setting isn’t the way to make that happen. There are things one does not post online and such info is one of those things.
    I did listen to beyond today in the past but never fully excepted the teachings of UCG as it did not believe in the oneness of God which has always been something I knew to be the truth. I may not be back either and not just because Observer might not be back but also because there have been some things you have said to me that do not make me feel comfortable. I may or may not be back here. The bottom line, I will not be threatened online.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:


    I remember that sermon well – scared me silly (demons and stuff).

    Funny though, there was a time at some stage, that he DID tell us to tell people!! Tell our friends, tell our family etc. I still even have a whole stack of ‘business cards’ advertising the 2 books that they gave us to ‘give out’!! (I still have them somewhere I am sure). I think I have about 100 of them. Nathan got a whole stack, Sharna did, and so did I. (Funny, I remembered being worried that I would not have enough!! What a joke!!). (I must stress though, he wasn’t telling us to do what O & WO are, just to – you all know the drill – “direct them to the website” and “give them a card” – yeah yeah).

    I believe this was spoken about during the sermon on the weekend I was baptised – help me out Mike, when was I baptised again? Jan 08 sometime?? I’m relatively sure about this because I know this happened when I saw him speak in person (BTW – I know what XHWA means about Ron’s smirks etc. When he baptised me, he did not even get into the pool – he just bent down beside the pool and dunked my head under – probably nothing wrong with that – but I don’t know, just thought it strange at the time. It’s like he had no feelings, empty shell). (NB. In Australia, we use ‘s’ instead of ‘z’ in baptised etc same as the English – sorry). But then I remember the cards were not ready until AGES after that, I recall Wayne bringing up more for us when he married Nathan and Sharna before the second blowing of the first trumpet (Dec 08).

    Actually, come to think about it, I think Ron’s comments as Aggie has pointed out, is because I told Wayne that a couple of our members were looking at this very blog (DDTFA) – and Wayne told Ron, hence Ron’s sermon comments as Aggie states (or a coindidence – not sure). I remember being worried at the time, as one of the members was telling Nathan (newbie) to look at this blog, and other ‘end time stuff’, so I told Wayne so Wayne could tell Nathan not to look at them (This did happen, it is the timeframe I am unsure of). The XPKG people that I am now back in contact with, because I have left too, well – I am surprised they talk to me at all with all the ‘dobbing’ I did. One member said to me, that he told me something, purely because he knew I would tell Wayne straight away. He was right, I did (I was the QLD Australian PKG spy!! I wonder who is doing all the dobbing now!! he he he!!).

    Wayne and I spoke about how he told his bosses about the coming disasters, and how they felt sorry for him because he was ‘brainwashed’.

    Waynes reply? “Yes, I am brain washed! My brain has been washed by the Holy Spirit!” (I don’t know if he actually said that to his bosses, can’t recall. But that is what he said to me).

    Ron told us to have a supply of 3 months worth of food because that was ‘wisdom’.

    He certainly flip flopped around didn’t he – ‘die slowly’ then ‘die speedily’ etc etc, on and on, blather blather blather. (Maybe he is dual personality or something? :-))

    O: please don’t include me in your prayers, I would rather you didn’t – thank you. It would be like me saying I would pray for you – I’m sure you would not like that (Oh yes, you wouldn’t care because you think God doesn’t hear me, because I no longer have God’s spirit – because I rejected God himself when I rejected Ron as his prophet – sorry about that, forgot my head for a minute :-)). I don’t need you, and your prayers are nothing. I would say thanks for the thought, but…nah. I know where that thought comes from – superiority (Yep – I’ve been there too – it takes one to know one after all). I better be careful to not feel superior for leaving before you, nor superior to you because I actually obeyed Ron and listened to what he said in these matters, and stayed away from these blogs etc right up until the day I left (as I was TOLD to stay away like everyone else). Yes, better watch that. Unfortunately, hate to admit this, but when all this fails, I would be the first one to say to you ‘I told you so’. Not proud of that, but I know myself NOW (thought I did in PKG – but must have been the flavour aid I was drinking) and will admit my faults and try to rectify them and learn from them. (Dill – am impatient for patience 😉 As I am sure you can all see, I have a LOT of work ahead of me!! My guess : O will just not be able to help himself to come here and ‘have a look’ – I know the type.

    I don’t want to commit the same ‘sin’ as O by saying I wish WO would still look at these posts to try and ‘learn’ something. I truly believe nothing any of us say here will make any difference to ANY exisiting PKG member. They will have to sort it out for themselves – I was WILLINGLY ignorant, but at the time would have been angered if someone had suggested so. Again, I keep saying this, they will NOT see this until they leave. In saying that, as you have all helped me SO MUCH, that when the ‘exodus’ from PKG finally does happen, they can come here and read all this, as I did, and feel heartened and not as ‘lost’ (as I found – and thank you ALL for this so much).

    Remember, Ron does not WORK for a living – he has a LOT of time on his hands to come up will all this crap – it makes sense, yes – until you OPEN YOUR EYES and admit that he truly is FALSE – by what he says NOT COMING TO PASS EXACTLY AS HE SAID IT WOULD – NOT EVEN CLOSE!

    You see O, when you are brought to nought (and you will be brought to nought) when the second, or third, or fourth, or fifth timeline fails (and they will) – you will understand everything I have said. It will be then, as it was with me, that you will see what you have become, what is so evident to the rest of us. You will discover, as I did, the true you, and you will despise yourself. PKG think they know humility, and I did too. But when you think you know everything, that God has ‘let you see’ and ‘given’ you everything – it let’s you think you are lucky and not above anyone else. In reality, that is EXACTLY how you come accross – THINKING AND ACTING LIKE YOU ARE ABOVE EVERYONE ELSE. It sets you up for a FALSE humility (hence your tone in almost everything you say here).

    Again, I hope others will be there for you, as people have been there for me.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Weinland Observor said:

    “I did listen to beyond today in the past but never fully excepted the teachings of UCG as it did not believe in the oneness of God which has always been something I knew to be the truth.”

    mmmmm – I thought God gave all new truths to His ministry? But you knew it first??? mmmm weird.

    I don’t see Aggie threatening you, but trying to look after you. I know though WO, you just won’t see it (*sigh*).

    You’ve had enough now, too much confrontation – your eyes tried to open perhaps? Now you willingly shut them – just as I did from April 08 to Jan 09.

    I wish you well WO, I truly do. I know you will still keep reading these posts, just as O will too.

    Take care (I mean it).

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    WO, I’m convinced that you’ve been trying to arrange a meeting with Observer. With the game of 20 questions and posting your email address. I don’t see Aggie as threatening you, he’s trying to protect you.

    What exactly have you told your parents about Ron? Do they understand what he’s all about? For example, would you show them your discussion on this blog and on my old blog? Or the email exchange you and I have had? (Which would be OK with me, in case you had any doubts.)

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Rotten Ronnie was in Surfer’s Paradise on Jan 12, 2008. According to my notes, during the March 1 sermon he said that people were allowed to advertise the book to family and friends. Then during the March 15 sermon he scolded people as Aggie quoted. Actually these weren’t during the sermons, they were in the announcements prior to the sermons. So maybe Observer will be back scolding Aggie because he listened to the whole sermon and didn’t hear anything about that.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    No wonder Ron didn’t want his believers to come and participate in blogs like this – O & WO have done a great job in helping turn people away from his craziness. Without them posting things as they have, it would just be about us ‘anti PKGer’s’ who are ‘evil’ and ‘hate God’. And hurt, disgruntled ‘xmembers’ who now hate God and have turned from His truth.

    As they have joined in, discussions have ensued, and most questions asked of them have been ignored or ‘skirted around’, as we have all witnessed (‘scuse the pun!).

    What a great insight for those considering going into PKG to see all these posts, from both sides. Ah, the mindset!!

    It certainly has provided a clarity and distinction that might not have otherwise existed quite as clearly.


    Good stuff!!

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mike, I will tell you what I told my parents about Ron. I told them about the book and the purpose of God’s plan through the holey days. I explained where Sunday and other traditions were created in 325 AD by the Necian Council. I then stated what would happen to the economy, etc. A response from someone, “Don’t tell me about that book! I don’t need to know anything else about that book!” I left it at that. Nobody cares what I do online as long as it’s not appropriate. They never banned me from listening to sermons etc. I often say other things here and there. They don’t care about me being here either as I haven’t done anything I shouldn’t.
    Mike, realize that the only way to contact with someone is to find a way to give them your address. I gave no such info and would never/will never do that on an online setting. It isn’t wise. The only reason why I asked Observer if he was from blank blank was to see if he was from around my area not to meet up as that wouldn’t be right or legal but because I would feel incouraged by people in my area being called. It turns out this is the case. 400% growth isn’t bad.
    In conclusion, my parents know I do a lot of research and I tell them what I find. They don’t care what I believe. Now if I told them that I would like to send money they give to me to COG-PKG they might refuse that and I wouldn’t do that anyway because tithes aren’t calculated on gifts and also because I do not have a legal right to money transfer until I am 18.

    Kirrily, the truth on the Oneness of God also clarified the purpose of Christ. I did believe the oneness of God and believed anyone who did was going on the right track, still do. Islam is an example. Have you heard the confession “I bear witness that there is only one god”? However other religions do not see the purpose of Christ and through what God gave to me I see that Christ is the Second Adam who is beginning a spiritual creation, the one who qualified to replace Satan from his throne, the one who died to start the process of spiritual creation, the one who draws all after God calls them, the very mind of God placed in to a human body when Christ was born, the Lamb without blemish, and the soon coming king with the 144000, God beings directly under the command of the Eternal Yahwha, God, Allah, al, the I am, whatever other name the human language has for him.

    In the end to Mike and all, God washed my brain. I didn’t hear about Ron through anyyone. I found his book on the internet by searching something I personally decided to look up, world war 3. So if God called me and I believe he did it was through no man but through my mind and the internet. Also keep in mind that if my parents didn’t want me to continue research I wouldn’t have been on the site listening to sermons. My parents could ban me from computer altogether as some here may have done, but they won’t and wouldn’t unless I deserved it.

  • todd says:

    if RW makes 50k per year, there is no way he could afford a 350,000 dollar home. My wife and I bring in a little more than that and our house is 1/3 that cost. we live comfortably but by no means would we afford a house at the price.
    My guess is he made his salary much higher.

  • J says:

    WO, so God influenced you to look up World War 3? Are you sure that was God?

    Oh, and I’m sure that the “influence” to look up conspiracy theories comes from God too, right?

    My real question is…. Why MUST it have been God that influenced you to look up World War 3? Is it totally impossible that it wasn’t just a random thought? You assume A LOT.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    AggieAtheist , maybe I didn’t state this clearly enough.
    1. I know how easy it would be to join or contact UCG or LCG.
    2. I see how they heir from what Armstrong taught with LCG being so close to the Trunk of the tree and veering from it by not excepting Armstrong as End Time Elijah.
    3. That God is working in COG-PkG who is the only one who kept all the truths and to whom were given more truths.
    4. I am not trying to meet up with anyone. I came here to talk about Ron and obviously had an interest in talking to someone with my ideas.
    5. I am realizing now more than ever that people have what they need available but will reject it. Therefor I will only answer questions from those who do not ask a question previously asked.
    6. I thank all here who have treated me with respect.
    7. I’m still around and hope others will be too.
    8. I particularly enjoyed talking to Observer, Kirrily, Dill, and Mike.
    9. I wish everyone here well.
    10. The best to you and your mom J.
    11. Happy blogging Mike.
    12. Keep living life Kirrily. You seam to do a good job. You ar open for the truth. It just needs to manifest first. I am not offended at you praying for me and although I am fine and there are many who care about me who I know well: family and friends as an example, it does feel good to know that someone I’ve never met does.
    In the words of so-called Santa Clause with paraphrasing done by Weinland Observer, “A happy summer to all and to all the best life.”
    Remember, the fact I don’t post doesn’t mean I’m not around.

    Observer, if you ever go on again remember to say hello, not that you will forget. Good luck to you and I pray for you as you for me.

    Well there you have it people. It might just be getting late in to posting sessions and Observers Out Time.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    J, looking up world War 3 may have been a random thought. I can’t be sure of when and how God molded and fashioned me. I truly can’t. I always had a “We are living in times of great war” idea. I always believed a third world war was bound to happen although it could be stopped.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    There is a way to say assume that clearly depicts the word. in case anyone doesn’t know it.

  • J says:

    WO, I see nothing godly about that website. (Mike: are we allowed to post websites here?) There is an inherent flaw in looking at outside sources for spiritual knowledge or context when really there’s only one source for that, the Bible. The Book of Mormon, the Apocrypha, Dianetics, 2008: God’s Final Witness, websites……it’s all the same. Attempts to shift away from and change the teachings and commandments of the Bible.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    J, do you honestly think that website was designed as a religious website? Religion and conspiratorial history are not perpendicular. Mike can delete what he wants. No need to announce it. That website doesn’t involve personal contact and if I own the website I’m also the mayor.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    J, just to let you know I did read The Middle East in Bible Prophesy from UCG in the past.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    J is perfectly within his rights to ask the question. I definitely don’t want my blog used to promote a bunch of nutty ideas. I guess in this case I’ll allow it because WO already has the idea and it allows someone to understand it a bit better.

    In Weinland’s case, religion and conspiracy theories intersect often. J could tell you all about that. Or just read my blog while WO talks about the NWO and luciferian Masons and some such. Wouldn’t be surprised to hear about chemtrails and how the government controls our mind with TV signals. WO, you can mention if you believe that nonsense as long as you don’t preach it to us. And keep the link posting to a minimum. I think you’ve used your quota for today.

    WO, it appears from your response that your parents don’t realize how fully invested you are with Weinland. That you are able to parrot Weinland at a moment’s notice and use his buzzwords often proves that. Hard for me to tell what exactly they know, if my child talked about the apocalypse I’d be concerned. But while I’m old enough, I’m not your parent.

  • DRMR says:

    J says:
    July 16, 2009 at 10:43
    WO, so God influenced you to look up World War 3? Are you sure that was God?

    Oh, and I’m sure that the “influence” to look up conspiracy theories comes from God too, right?

    My real question is…. Why MUST it have been God that influenced you to look up World War 3? Is it totally impossible that it wasn’t just a random thought? You assume A LOT. end quote

    Excellent Points!

    And that is so typical of Armstrong or cult-influenced type thinking.

    And I’ve noticed that with other church members, and myself, we are (were) looking at events in our lives, especially any kind of coincidences or synchronicities, as “God is doing this, God is doing that” or “The Holy Spirit told me this, or the Holy Spirit told me that” or one takes particular incidents in their life as “signs” that God is speaking to them.

    And that is the exact type of thinking that people like RW thrive on. Without having had personal experience with RW, I feel sure of this, because it was the same with HWA.

    Somebody, I think Kirrily, said that their “head was hurting from all this” or something like that.

    Well, I can relate to that. And to stop my own head from hurting, I’ve had to throw it all away and start from scratch.

    And right now, the only thing I feel confident about in regards to God, is this, to quote Thomas Paine:

    ” I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
    I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.”

    Just my two cents.

    Hope it might be helpful to someone.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Weinland Watch, what do you think of my answers. Are you now convinced that my parents could have banned me from Ron but did not? I hope you don’t mind me calling me Weinland Watch as I know more of you by that name. Also, I thought you were done with Ron. How and when did you change this?

    Mike, what would you have done if you were my parent and found out I was reading up on Ron and Armstrong? Also, do you feel I shouldn’t be posting here?

  • J says:

    Chemtrails, ha. I could tell you about chemtrails.
    J, do you honestly think that website was designed as a religious website? Religion and conspiratorial history are not perpendicular.

    You’re right, they’re not perpendicular. With PKG, they’re entirely parallel. Also, I wouldn’t call it conspiratorial history, but rather theories, and not often educated theories at that.

    And no, it’s not designed as a religious website, however that’s how you use it. You read that site and attempt to make those rumors fit into Biblical (and Weinland) prophecies. Trust me, you’re not the first.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I do believe in the existence of an NWO, Builderberg, Masonry, and the rest. I will have to leave it at that as this isn’t the place, but Conspiratorial History is no story. One more sentence: Turkish creationist Harun Yahya exposed a filming of 33rd degree Masons worshipping Satan. I hope nobody is a Mason here.

    Anyway, the volidity of Conspiritorrial history is imaterial. Nobody will be able to stop God’s kingdom!

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I’m beginning to sound like the boy who cried “I’m leaving” I plan on leaving and never do, and I’m talking about this blog. People do try to scair me away, but there is nothing you can do. I’m thankfull to have parents who aren’t like some of you here.

  • J says:

    How about Moon landing hoax, 9/11 Inside job, chemtrail, TV signal brainwash, Illuminati, and Fluoride conspiracies? All together, mind you. Again, you wouldn’t be the first.

  • whatmeworry says:

    ” I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
    I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.”

    I’ve been looking for a sentance to express what I believe, and this pretty much hit it on the head. Thanks DRMR

  • DRMR says:


    Thanks for mentioning that.

    I’ve gotta tell you, as far as quotes go, that describe a basic belief, and what man’s duty and worship toward God should be, I think

    this is one of the most beautiful quotes I’ve ever seen.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I’ll post here what I posted in January on the old blog after the fast. This was my only post before June.

    January 31, 2009 6:10 PM
    Anonymous said…
    I have read Weinland’s books and publications along with HWA’s publications around a year ago and have been observing Weinland through listening to sermons and examining his site updates. I easily believed he was sent from God and had no problem excepting the 50th truth and even felt that the fall of the USA that was to occur either during the fall of 2008 or six months later according to Weinland’s book could occur 8 months later due to Weinland’s prophesy. Just so you know that some are seeing Weinland’s lies for what they are, I saw when listening to the sermons that stated that the second trumpet could occur 2 years in to the Great
    Tribulation if Cog-pkg members humbled themselves in fasting and prayer that this Weinland was truly false. I will continue to read about Weinland but not because I believe him! At least I don’t believe traditional Christianity as after listening to Herbert W Armstrong and Ron Weinland it is hard for any thinking person to return to it! There is nobody who I found who teaches what the compelation called the Bible teaches as fully as Ronald Weinland, but this makes no difference in the fact that he has been proven after declaring the last fast to be what many thought he was, a false prophet!

    I got this reply

    That is truly sad. I’m not sure that you are turned off to traditional Christianity beccause of Ron or if you were turned off to traditional Christianity which made you find Ron. I was part of the HWA cult for 28 years and now have an orthodox faith in an orthodox church. HWA turned me off to heretics like Ron.

    Any comments?

  • xHWA says:


    So, that was you posting as “Anonymous”, and you stated that you believe Ron Weinland is a false prophet? Am I reading that right??
    Just asking for clarification is all.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    xHWA, that was me posting in January.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “I will just say that the number has increased by 400% after the first timeline”

    So the church has gained 40 members. Whoop-de-doo.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “They don’t mind me looking him up.”

    And do they mind you following the church’s rules?

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Funny though, there was a time at some stage, that he DID tell us to tell people!! Tell our friends, tell our family etc. I still even have a whole stack of ‘business cards’ advertising the 2 books that they gave us to ‘give out’!! (I still have them somewhere I am sure). I think I have about 100 of them. Nathan got a whole stack, Sharna did, and so did I. (Funny, I remembered being worried that I would not have enough!! What a joke!!). (I must stress though, he wasn’t telling us to do what O & WO are, just to – you all know the drill – “direct them to the website” and “give them a card” – yeah yeah).”

    Yes, that was from a sermon two weeks previously. The reason for Weinland’s change in tactics was because the ex-Church of God blogosphere was starting to ramp up at that time (particularly the discussion on Ironwolf.), and he didn’t want to risk members putting themselves into a situation where they could be counseled out of the church.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “400% growth isn’t bad.”

    400% growth is not true. This is an out-and-out bald-faced lie.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “I found his book on the internet by searching something I personally decided to look up, world war 3. “

    Because this is one of the Google ad words that Weinland purchased. He also purchased “2012” (even back when the first timeline was predicting 2011), nostradamus, and others Mike can probably provide a more comprehensive list of. So, it wasn’t god at all, it was Weinland’s decision to enter every apocalyptic end-time conspiracy theory buzzword into his Google ad words, and fleece the tithing members to pay for it, that led you to “find” Weinland’s book, because it was a sponsored search result.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Direct answers to direct questions, as requested.

    Weinland Observer says:
    July 16, 2009 at 12:49

    Weinland Watch, what do you think of my answers.

    I think you’re far too young to be so deeply indoctrinated.

    Are you now convinced that my parents could have banned me from Ron but did not?

    No, I am not, because you have NOT told your parents the extent to which you are involved. Have you showed them this blog site? Have you showed them Mike’s emails, as he suggested? Have you considered having your parents contact Mike (or even one of us), so they can see “both sides of the story”? If not, why not?

    I hope you don’t mind me calling me Weinland Watch as I know more of you by that name.
    Well at least you’re reading the old blog material, that’s encouraging. But what do you think of it? And no, call me by whichever of the usernames I go by: AGnosticAtheist, PurpleHymnal, WeinlandWatch, AggieAtheist, are some of the userids I’ve participated on the ex-Church of God sites with.

    Also, I thought you were done with Ron. How and when did you change this?

    I am done with transcribing Weinland’s sermons and radio interviews from 2008. I no longer keep track of Weinland’s ongoing false prophecies, because they are just “icing on the cake”. The book is titled 2008 God’s Final Witness, after all, not 2008 and 3/4.

    Since I have finished the job with the WW blog, I have become more involved in processing my own demons, incurred as a result of growing up in the church. But I have never stopped participating in the comments section of DDTFA, and the other ex-COG blogs, as you will see if you look around.

    As for why I am holding Weinland to his words from 2008: By his own admonitions, if none of the prophecies came to pass in 2008, he was supposed to stop preaching. Listen for yourself, if you don’t believe me. Pentecost was June 8, 2008. And yet here you sit, preaching the church of Ron (when you are not even a tithing member), over one year later.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Well Weinland Watch the only physical thing that my parents would have to either allow me to do or not is to keep the sabbath. They don’t mind and you wouldn’t be able to notice that I am keeping it. That’s probably because I don’t have a job. With Atonement Ron stated that some who have reasons for not being able to fast could just eat differently or less. If I remember what I did was obstain from junk food and drink less water. Unlevened bread is something I think would require more permission. I’ll have to cross that bridge when I get there. At that point in time it wil be interesting to see what happens.
    I am listening to the sermon series on Estar as I had tuned it out at the time since I dismissed the fast and took it as proof of Ron being false. I ponder what Observer said yesterday about maybe having a purpose from God in being in Canada as I had thought before. It has been nice to have someone acctually in cog-pkg on this website and I hope that more come along although I know there are reasons for not as well. Right now, I just need a place to talk about Ron. I don’t have a place for that kind of conversation so I come here.
    I think that Weinland Watch was picturing me as someone keeping this dark secret called Ron Weinland. Such is not the case. Please leave Observer alone as Observer has done nothing but being friendly like several other people have been. Also, as far as my life goes haven’t you read all the posts on not keeping it on hold? Lastly, you have no way of knowing for sure that 400% growth is a lie. You estimate based on web traffic. What does web traffic do to determine numbers like Cog-pkg membership? Observer being in Cog-pkg and possibly in the region would know about the growth moreso. Also, it was about Atlantic Canada not Canada in general.
    I still wonder how long I will be posting here.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    To be blunt, my family could care less about this blog. No need for them to contact you either. They know what I research, they don’t care about researching it. I’m home when I listen to Ron. I could be stopped anytime. I talk about it sometimes, and there is nothing wrong with it. This hasn’t been a problem and I am not seeking help in making it one.

  • todd says:

    400% GROWTH OF 1 IS 5 … CORRECT?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Correct Todd. How do you know the number was 1? Wild guess?

  • J says:

    With Atonement Ron stated that some who have reasons for not being able to fast could just eat differently or less. If I remember what I did was obstain from junk food and drink less water.

    Huh? You’re more than able, being a 15-year-old. You have the ability to forego food for 24 hours (unless there’s a medical problem I don’t know about). I’ve done it since I was 10. It’s no big deal. Unless people are forcibly shoving food down your throat, you can fast.

    Practice what you preach.

    (P.S. Mike, WordPress’ spell checker does not believe “forego” is a word. Tsk tsk tsk.)

  • AggieAtheist says:

    This conversation reminds me so much of the Ironwolf discussions that occurred in 2008, from beginning to end, that I just have to shake my head.

    And WO, you still have not read the Wikipedia article on love-bombing, because if you had, and you were not a vulnerable young person, you would recognize that this is what Observer is doing, right to a “T”.

    “Right now, I just need a place to talk about Ron. I don’t have a place for that kind of conversation so I come here.”

    Which is proof enough why I need to disengage. I refuse to be an enabler of your self-delusions, WO. TALK TO YOUR PARENTS. Show them this blog, and show them Mike’s emails. Then tell me your parents have no problem with you following Weinland. And you aren’t really, by the way, as “eating no junk food” is NOT what ANY Church of God would consider a fast: A fast is NOTHING BY MOUTH not even liquids, from sundown to sundown. ONE day. NOT two (which is physically dangerous).

    That Weinland has deviated so much (and in regards to the DoUB laws, and the FoT being shortened), proves that he is no longer even holding fast to Armstrongism. Which should be, if you were really enamoured with HWA, proof enough to kick Weinland to the curb as well. Not just because he’s a false prophet.

    Okay that’s it, I’m done.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Speaking of growth, in the COG-QLD group there were originally 9 members, when I left, there were two left. (I’m no good at maths, don’t know how to work out that percentage decrease).

    House prices: Where I live, the average house price for a decent ordinary house is $500,000-00 AUD – my siblings all own houses around the $1million mark (they live in Sydney – my sister and husband just bought an apartment for close to 1 million – not even a house!!). On average, I think Australians earn $45K a year (my siblings earn more each than this).

    Our house prices BOOMED over the last 10 years. It is VERY difficult for young people to get into the market. At the moment, our government is giving new home owners a $21,000-00 ‘grant’ (only for first home buyers) to build a new house, or $14,000-00 to buy an existing house. No stamp duty (tax) to boot. It’s gotten a lot of first home buyers to buy, but it has also created a slight rise in property prices.

    DRMR Said/quoted:
    ” I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
    I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.”

    Love it!! Thank you.

    WO: Oneness of God – yes. I think most ‘Christian’ relegions speak of the oneness of God (except there are 3, which are one – what the?? he he he!!) – I was speaking of the ‘truth’ of Christ not pre-existing before He was born of Mary truth.

    This just came to mind (ha! thank goodness I’m on general discussion – I’m all over the place here! 😉 – One reason Ron gave for the abomination of desolation being Tkotch, was that Isreal/Jerusalum is NOT Holy. The CHURCH was the Holy place. That made perfect sense to me (except the Bible seems to indicate the 1335 days starts from the abomination??) anyway, the BIBLE calls Jerusalum (mount) HOLY in MANY places!!

    Don’t worry WO: I am very sure that O is still observing all these posts. It will be interesting to see if he comments again though – on that, I am not sure.

    I have my pentecostal parents in law coming today for at least 3 days 🙁 wish me luck everyone!

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Aggie – I am concerned for WO too.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I did not mean it in that way. I like talking about Ron. My parents are okay with me being on this blog. They don’t mind me being on blogs. How’s about we switch the subject. This isn’t and will not get anywhere.
    P.S. I can do without talking about Ron. Don’t get me wrong there.

  • todd says:

    not sure how the aussie’s do there financial stuff over there, but here…there is no possible way to do a 1,000,000 mortgage on a 45,000 income.
    just curiouse, what is the currency of the ausie dollar vs american dollar…..

  • J says:

    P.S. I can do without talking about Ron. Don’t get me wrong there.

    Then you’re in the wrong place.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I meant it is possible for me not to talk about Ron without feeling any loss of any sort. Weinland Watch seamed to apply that i have a physical need to talk about Ron.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Mike, what would you have done if you were my parent and found out I was reading up on Ron and Armstrong? Also, do you feel I shouldn’t be posting here?

    Putting an “if I were your parent” hat on, I wouldn’t be concerned about the fact that you were posting here. But I would be concerned about what you’re posting here. I would be concerned about your buying into the religious and conspiracy theories out on the Internet.

    But I’m not your parent. Your parents are your parents. I don’t think they understand how much you’ve been sucked into this. If you don’t think they’ll have a problem with this, then you should have no reluctance to showing them the comments you’ve posted both here and also on my old blog, and the emails that you and I have exchanged and the emails that you’ve exchanged with Johnny Harrell. Ask them to take a look, at a good time (when they’re not in the middle of something, make an appointment if necessary). If they’re really cool with this, what’s the down side — who knows, maybe they’ll even be converted by your arguments.

    But I rather think you know they might have a problem, when you said “This hasn’t been a problem and I am not seeking help in making it one.“. Not asking that you have them research anything, just read what you wrote on my blogs.

  • DRMR says:

    AggieAtheist said,

    Weinland Watch, what do you think of my answers.

    “I think you’re far too young to be so deeply indoctrinated.”

    Amen, Amen, and Amen!

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mike, I’ll do that at some point in time and see if they want to take a look at your site. I can’t guarantee they will and I certainly don’t expect them to contact you.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I’m not looking for them to contact me, but if they want to that’s OK with me. I’m just asking that they read what you wrote — sooner is better.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Occasionally I have looked into the Google search terms that generate sponsored links to In April of 2008 I blogged the following terms:

    Here are a few search terms that did generate sponsored links: “herbert armstrong”, “two witnesses” (headlined), “end time” (headlined), “revelation”, “pope”, “prophet”, “prophecy”, “armageddon”, “bible”, “jesus”, “jesus christ”, “christ”, “god”, “2008”, “antichrist’, “anti-christ”, “mark of the beast”, “great tribulation”

    Some search terms that did not generate a sponsored link were: “sabbath”, “tithe”, “satan”, “agape”, “biblical truth”

    Then in January I blogged about it again. What does “Nostradamus” have to do with God’s end-time prophet?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Okay AggieAtheist I just read the wikipedia article. Observer wasn’t brainwashing me. As you would believe, I came here with the package as Mike stated in another way. I already had the influence and talked to Observer because Observer had the same ideas as I did. Just admit it, I was given what I was given through the websites and not this blog. Admit it. Others here have been nice to me for the most part. You can’t call talking about shared ideas love bombing. As for attention to my comments and replying, many others do.

    As for your site your sermon summaries were better than Mike’s.

  • Dill Weed says:

    I found my monkey wrench! It was right next to a can of worms, right where I left it! Good thing those pesky monkeys didn’t find it! : D

    I was thinking about something and thought I’d ask WO and O what they think.

    Could the 2nd Trumpet be spiritual? That is, could Ron say, announce that it had happened and that God had given it to him?

    Would you believe that WO and O?

    Also I was looking at some of the Trumpets and one of them is supposed to last 5 months (the stinging locust/scorpions) this kind of moves up the timeline. I don’t see a reason to not take the 5 months literally.

    There’s quite a bit to be fit in a less than 3 year period.

    Supernatural is on. Anyone familiar with the show? On the season ending the last seal that released Lucifer was broken! This show is the one where an angel lost her grace. I used to be a scaredy cat and couldn’t watch the whole show, but Dill Jr. is here. : /

    Dill Weed chiming in.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Welcome back Dill. Glad you found what you were looking for. Are you planning on any fishing? I hope to go on a vacation, but Mike gave everyone a break from having to read about it as he was trying to find an inner meaning that didn’t exist.
    No, the second trumpet is physical. If it happens to not be, then I’m smelling shrimp or something fishy.
    Fifth trumpet equals five months according to book.
    Sixth trumpet = half a time, 180 days according to hints on sermons.
    This means the four trumpets business needs to be taken care of 11 months earlier at the latest!
    IF it doesn’t, then… the rest is history.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    WO: “I hope to go on a vacation, but Mike gave everyone a break from having to read about it as he was trying to find an inner meaning that didn’t exist.

    Huh? What are you talking about?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mike, I was talking about Potato Land. You seam to know where it is.

    I need to add to my last comment. because of 6th trumpet being 180 days half a time due to some hints on sermons and 5th trumpet lasting 5 months, we need to be under European rule by July 2, 2011.

  • Observer says:

    Hi Dill Weed: No and the “5 month sting” takes place during the year, month and day (part of the 5th trumpet/1st woe) before the 6th trumpet and affects the scattered church. I tend to agree with WO about the 6th trumpet lasting a half time but this is purely speculation based on a logical timeline that I’ve already mentioned.
    WO: As Mike said, the quote from Aggie/ Purple Hymnal was not in the sermon. It was a great sermon though and I’m glad I listened to it again. I have a few mp3 players with past sermons on them that I need to check to see if this sermon (with announcements) is on one of them. Honestly, it does not sound like Ron at all and I will be surprised if there is any truth to it. Usually there is at least some truth but we’ll see. Since Mike said that the quote was in the announcements perhaps he has a copy that he can put up here for us to listen to. 18 + minutes in and still announcements, hum. I’ll keep you posted if I find anything.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Nice to read your words Observer. If you find anything that suggests we shouldn’t be here, come here one more time to let me know about it. I too doubt this to be the case. I’m not suggesting you didn’t look at this, but here it is for eveeryone else too.

    Internet Forums | ↑ top
    If someone desires to go onto and be part of any website forum the decision is theirs, as it is simply a personal matter. A person should ensure that the content on the forum is spiritually sound and uplifting to their spiritual life. If a forum becomes a place where people begin to preach to others or pull down the truth, one needs to be on guard and ask the question, “What spiritual good is this doing me?”

    Related sermons:
    “1 John – Pt 6” (August 23, 2008)

    As I stated, this has been spiritually helpful for me at least. I have proven the truth here and met several people.
    As you said, this is good Observer, good practice for the future. Hopefully the same is true with you but if not then it’s not, nothing wrong with that.
    As for timing, I don’t want to wish summer away but when Oct. 10 arrives much will be revealed.

    J, Have you/are you planning on watching Harry Potter?

  • todd says:

    lol…too funny! proven the truth? I don’t think you’ve swayed anyone’s opinion yet…..someone please correct me if i’m wrong.

  • J says:

    WO, first, it’s “seem”, not “seam”. Pleeeeeease get that right. You use it a lot, so it needs to be right. 🙂

    And second, I’m seeing Harry Potter on Sunday. I expect it to be very good.

    Lastly, with Todd’s question there, I feel you need to make a clarification:

    I have proven the truth [to myself] here and met several people.

    Please don’t imply that you’ve proven things [to us] here. Be very clear in the things you say so there won’t be misunderstandings.

  • jack635 says:

    Weinland Observer, you said I have proven the truth here and met several people

    What do you mean by “proven the truth”? Just curious.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    J: No way a 45k salary would pay a 1 million mortgage – my siblings are earning way more than that (probably closer to $200k combined – sorry, should’ve been clearer) – but indeed, where I live, an average house (4 bed, 2 bathroom – about 10 years old) costs about $500,000-00. On the coast where I live though, it is even more expensive, around the $700,000-00 mark. And apparently the AVERAGE wage here is about $45k. (Especially in QLD).

    As an example, we pay about $50-00 for a 1125ltr bottle of whiskey, about $15.00 for a packet of cigarettes (I don’t smoke). A movie costs $17-00, petrol is about $1-27 per litre here today, a dinner for two costs about $50-00 at an average restaurant, loaf of bread about $3-50, UHT milk 1 ltr costs about $1-20.

    I haven’t looked for a while, but I think the AUD is getting about 65 US cents at the moment. It did get up to nearly dollar for dollar before the big falls.

    It was good for us here (exports) as you can imagine when our dollar fell. I think the New Zealand dollar only gets about 48 cents v. US dollar – but again, I haven’t taken much notice.

    WO: What Aggie heard in the sermon is EXACTLY what I heard too. Remember it as clear as a bell, as I ‘preached’ to the others in my group and gave them a hard time about it (as they were going to other sites etc).

    I wouldn’t lie about this – and it is EXACTLY like Ron (although he flip flops all the time).

    Mike – do you have the announcements where he said this? If not, let me know and I will try to source it. I will not listen to it myself, as his voice would make me ill.

    *sigh* – I am sitting in a car park with my laptop dreading to go home to parents in law 🙁 It’s like I am allergic to ‘christians’ now or something. I hope I will not be rude to them – especially as the last time I saw them I told them they were probably going to die in the tribulation. I’m sure because of what I have said, they will be the first people to wake up when the REAL witnesses turn up! (NOT). They are the ‘pretend’ nice people, but talk behind peoples backs – and tease fat people.

    Take care all.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    The hour+day+month+year is described during the 6th trumpet. But the description is vague enough that this period could be during the 5th trumpet. Ron will keep squeezing the trumpets together, but the 5-month period is hard to squeeze. Once December of 2011 comes he’ll have to switch to a new timeline or spiritualize it somehow. And prior to that explain the lack of the second trumpet — he’s made statements about “nukular” weapons going off within a year, such as on a radio interview in March.

    WO, I believe Jack has nailed it. By restating your conclusions, the only thing you’re doing is reproving them to yourself. If you want to prove anything to the rest of us who don’t believe it, you’ll have to assemble some facts and string them together in a coherent and logical fashion.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Todd – sorry, I answered your question relating to money addressed to J: sorry!! It was meant for you 🙂

  • Observer says:

    Hi WO: I checked my mp3 players as well as my computer and I do have another copy of the sermon but it doesn’t contain the announcements either. If the message that Aggie mentioned is actually there, it probably was directed specifically at certain individuals and not meant generally. It is wise, though, to make sure that we do not give aid to God’s enemies by the things we say and do and therefore must exercise caution and not automatically trust everyone. Satan truly is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour and he is given lots of human help both intentionally and in ignorance. We are to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves.

    As for the section you quoted from the FAQ, it does have some relevance here but I believe it is more concerning Face Book and other blogs where PKGers meet and discuss. There is a warning there because #1 everyone may not be who they claim to be and #2 it can cause problems when students start sharing there ideas with each other … he said , she said, I remember clearly, this is OK, this isn’t …. I think you know what I mean. For example, I could have given you a little sermon on watching movies when Harry Potter came up: all my OPINIONS. That would have been WRONG. You are accountable to God and not to me and things that don’t specifically pertain to doctrine are especially off limits. Ron doesn’t “police” these sights but asks us to be wise in their use. It is too easy to harm our brother, especially those who are new. The sermon series on Judgment and Mercy shed a lot of light in this area.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Well said Observer. Being wise is important and I feel I am learning to do just that slowly with God’s help. There obviously is a difference about what you would say to people you know as opposed to people you do not know. That’s why I have lines I won’t cross although I have been accused of trying to cross them. So the verdict is we are okay being on here and just need to watch what is said. I myself had to repent of several things I said here so it is a growing process. I also believe I have created a list of good guidelines for myself. It will be nice to hear from you here and I am praying possibly around unlevened Bread to ask my parents for their written concent to the Church. I have set dates now Mike. I feel you will be proud of this random 15-year old posting on your blog even though you don’t know who he is.
    P.S. I listened to the sermon series on Estar. I realize now that I would have missed out if I hadn’t and I didn’t listen to it when it heired live as that was when I had certain ideas that God took out of me.

    Mike, I stated exactly and clearly that I had proven the truth to myself. I will add to that. I had already been given the truth by God but all the claims people made to me convinced me of the truth even more, including the stuff on the Board. Also, I got the opportunity of sharing the truth here. The glory is always to God.
    I can’t convince anyone of the truth. If anyone is convinced by what I say it is God who gives it.

    Kirrily, QLD seams to be an expensive place to live in. House prices are crazy compared to Atlantic Canada. As far as smokes, beer etc, they are expencive here too and I thank God my family has nothing to do with them whatsoever. I mean that literally. 0 tolerance for that.

  • xHWA says:

    I need to ask, what/when was the first trumpet?
    I just heard an audio sound bite where Ron said it was the death of Joe Tkatch Sr.
    Zat right?
    The soundbyte is here in the God’s Final Witness video. Listen from 9:22 through 9:54.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    xHWA, Dec. 17, 1994 was the opening of the first seal. Here’s one thing I want to know. Exactly what was given to Ron before the business with the Board. Were the opening of the first four seals, the man of sin, the abomination of desolation, etc revealed by then?

  • xHWA says:

    WO – “Exactly what was given to Ron before the business with the Board. Were the opening of the first four seals, the man of sin, the abomination of desolation, etc revealed by then?”

    I recall him mentioning in a sermon that “40 Sabbaths later, to the very hour, he [Joe Tkatch Sr.] died.” I can remember that distinctly because it was such a shocking thing to think about. To my Armstrongist mind, that really was “proof”. And Ron did use that to call Joe Tkatch Sr. the “Man of Sin”. But Ron never followed it up at that time with any mention about trumpets or seals or abominations or that.
    If I recall, at that time he was still on about the money system collapsing around ‘Y2K’, and the Euro taking over. He never mentioned being a prophet. All he did was all that had been done for the past 60+ years; he took current events, applied them to Bible prophecy, claimed the end is coming “soon”, and when that failed he moved to the next thing. When he said some years later that he was a prophet since 1997, it sure was news to us.

    I will also mention that it was no revelation of Ron’s that Joe Sr. was supposedly that “Man of Sin”. Many people in many groups were calling him that. Many people across the COGs were likening the change in direction of the WCG to the “Great Falling Away”… and they still do. Ron just jumped on board that train is all.

    So, I would say the most direct answer to your question is “nothing”.

  • misfit says:

    Didn’t someone say that WordPress has a spell check? How do you access it?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    J was talking about it earlier. Actually I doubt that WordPress has the spell checker, but that it’s built into the browser. If not, then Blogger has a problem with “forego” too. I use Firefox.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    There’s also doing spellcheck on Microsoft word by writing your post in a word document, doing spell check, then cut and paste in to a post. That’s something I need to do.

  • toby says:

    Hi Todd, as a member in a church of God for 40+yrs I would like to encourage you to listen to Aggie (whom I don’t often agree with 🙂 ) Please tell your parents what way you are thinking and please check out the website she recommends. Also I would encourage you to look up Gavin’s site Ambassador Watch, He has a list of many Cog’s you can investigate to see what they believe. Obviously I think that where I am Is best but I’m not pushing that 🙂 But please, please do what Aggie says.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Okay that I will do. Most people I know know what I think. I’m not one to hide that. I will check out Ambassador Watch and see what it’s all about. Call me whatever you want but I never did too much on that blog. I assumed the comment was for me although I didn’t see my name on part 2 of the comment. Don’t worry about me as my family is the open type, not the closed type.

  • Dill Weed says:


    “All he did was all that had been done for the past 60+ years; he took current events, applied them to Bible prophecy, claimed the end is coming “soon”, and when that failed he moved to the next thing.”

    If I had a nickel every time I heard something like that I could build a stairway to the moon out of dimes. : D

    It’s a little different this time around though. Ron has made the fatal mistake of identifying himself as a prophet with a finite shelf life and a definitive end. It’s like potato salad with pineapples in it sitting out in the sun – soon or later bad things are gonna happen!

    The end game is on. The clock is tick tock ticking away.

    I just don’t see anyway he can possibly recover and continue on when this all fails to pan out.

    It is worse than predicting The End and it failing to materialize. You can always re-calculate the numbers and discover something new and if you’re smart you’ll avoid being specific next time around, but dangle the end as ever imminent. : O

    But, how can you back out of being the Two Witnesses? Of mistaking the beginning of your ministry? Especially, with it documented all over the web?

    How can he in anyway maintain credibilty with anyone, much less himself? You can’t be very convincing if you do don’t believe in what you are saying, don’t drink your own flavor aid. The pressure will be telling.

    Dill Weed

  • todd says:


  • Observer says:

    Hi Dill Weed: He can’t and he won’t have to. : ) Hope you enjoy the sermon tomorrow. (You know I was only teasing you about going fishing instead of listening to it and that I’d fill you in on anything you missed) Have a nice evening.

    WO: In case I don’t talk to you again this evening, I just wanted to say “have a great Sabbath and I’ll talk to you again soon.” (on this blog of course) Glad you enjoyed the sermons on Esther. Did you listen to the ones on Jonah as well?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Have a good sabbath Observer. I haven’t listened to the Jonah sermon yet. I think you are referring to one titled Jonah’s Battle. I can’t seam to decide what to listen to as the title isn’t what gives you the main idea of what the sermon is about in all cases. Eventually I plan to listen to them all. I only end up listening to around a sermon a day as I like to read all quoted scriptures in their context and often pause to pray as I read and listen. In addition to this I try to listen to around 1/6 of the previous weekly sermon with study and prayer each day. I won’t be able to do this much when I start school most of the time with homework, projects, and anything else I might do. There is always the Sabbath for that though and might just sstick to listening to the weekly sabbath bit by bit each day and study the referenced scriptures. I’ve been thinking about homework on the Sabbath. I’m not doing it for a living and not getting paid for it so I feel it is okay as long as I listen to the sermon and have God in my thoughts. Examples of this include Science homework which I might save for the Sabbath as it would be of God since I would get to ponder God’s creation. Your thoughts? I did some prayer on this and I feel it should work out.

  • Observer says:

    WO: The Jonah series that I was referring to was given before the Esther series in preparation for the fast at the end of January.
    Your dedication to listening to sermons and reading all the scriptures in context is very commendable.
    I would like to think and pray about your other questions before I respond. I may drop in tomorrow since “fellowship” with a believer is certainly a good thing to do on the Sabbath wouldn’t you say? Take care and have a good evening.

  • xHWA says:

    DW – “It’s a little different this time around though. Ron has made the fatal mistake of identifying himself as a prophet with a finite shelf life and a definitive end.”
    OH! LET’S HOPE!!

    By the way, can I borrow 5 miles of dimes?

  • xHWA says:

    I do have one observation about Herbert W. Armstrong’s shelf-life, for all of those people who believe that HWA never claimed to be a prophet and never predicted anything specific. I’m going to catch mental-flack for bringing this video up, buuuuuuuut, on the You Tube video “Called To Be Free”, Start listening at 5:11 through 5:42, HWA makes very specific prophecy about a famine that ruins the United States. He stakes his very reputation on this famine coming in 20 years! If it fails you know he’s false! This is very clearly a prophecy and not a prediction, since he invokes a Biblical test for prophets in verifying the accuracy of it.
    He sounds fairly young in the audio, so I am guessing that it was pre-1970’s. Here we know that he has been dead for over 20 years, so this audio can be no less than 30 years, and could very well be 40 years old.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I don’t trust anyone on Called To Be Free further than I can throw them. I did watch the video before fully believing and knowing about Ron. Even before I believed Ron or read 2008GFW I had done research on WCG. I didn’t understand everything but I ddid realize that the organization had left truth. Very little scripture is quoted. I did watch the whole vid a while back and the video quotes very little scripture as a commenter stated. Called To BE Free. Interesting title. Free from what? Free from obeying God is the answer although it’s not the direct answer. I close this topic with a question from anyone here who holds to Traditional Christianity. Don’t say Ron convinced me of these ideas. I was turned off to this all the time.

    If I am correct, you believe that Jesus died for the sins of mankind and that excepting him as savior, that he died, and that he can forgive your sins earns you a spot in Heaven while those who do not do this go to Hell. Am I correct here?

    Observer, see you tomorrow.

    I speak now with a belief I always had. I never did have much respect for anyone who traded an amount of truth for less truth and more lies. I hope for the truth seeker, wish better for the decieved or those who stray from the path of seeking truth, and look upon the brainwashers with disgust.
    Peace all.

    Kirrily, Good luck with your parents In law. My suggestion, try keep religon out or talk about it in a form of trying to understand what they believe, not having to except it. Some of my best friends are and have always been people with varying religious beliefs. From my experience, anyone with a religgion who sincerely follows it is very deesent. Religious people who are sincere tend to have principals, beliefs, and plans for life. I don’t have to agree with people or try to influence them in order to have respect for them, get along with them, or even be friends with them.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    “I don’t trust anyone on Called To Be Free further than I can throw them.”

    WO, something about which we can agree. I don’t trust anyone who spoke on that video. And that goes particularly for HWA, of whom they played a brief clip that HWA pointed out. False Prophet Herbert Armstrong.

  • xHWA says:

    WO – “I don’t trust anyone on Called To Be Free further than I can throw them.”
    Well spoken, as I perceive that you don’t even trust the words recorded from the very mouth of the man you consider an Apostle, Herbert Armstrong, who appears in Called To Be Free.

    I didn’t ask anyone to listen to anything except that specific part where HWA speaks. And it is undeniable that he has incriminated himself with his own mouth. Who denies this?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I would like to know where that clip came from. Something about that group of people who made that video that makes me feel very suspicious. I may have made an error as I shouldn’t have included Armstrong although it appears I did indirectly and without me realizing it. I’m not saying you know or should know when the clip came from. I just think it would be important to know where it came from in context. A randomly picked statement from a random program proves nothing in the same way that reading a seentence in the middle of a paragraph won’t give the paragraph’ position in a propper perspective.

  • todd says:

    lol….in other words w/o….there has got to be an escape route to crawl out of the obviouse hole…..the false prophet!

  • xHWA says:

    “A randomly picked statement from a random program proves nothing”
    Usually I would say you would be correct, but this is no mere randomly picked statement from a random program. It is clear, it is precise. And from what I know about the predictions made in Armstrongism, I place it around the mid to late 1950’s. Those were the times when the WCG was predicting famine, and predicting things in 20 years to coincide with the end of the third 19-year time cycle in 1972-1975.

    I will transcribe the statement for the reader too biased to listen to the words of their prophet as if the clip in which it appears has defiled it or changed its clear meaning.

    “I want to tell you that all this weather disturbance means a terrible famine is coming on the United States that is going to ruin us as a nation inside of less than 20 more years.
    Alright, I stuck my neck out right there. You just wait 20 more years and see whether I told you the truth.
    God says, if a man tells you what’s going to happen, wait and see. If it does not happen, he was not speaking the word of God; he was speaking out of his own mind.
    You watch and see whether these things happen. You’ll see who’s speaking to you, my friends.”

    Now, does that seem to anyone – other than WO – to be some context-less, ambiguous, random sound byte snatched from the ether?

  • Dill Weed says:

    If the pope dies what does that mean for Ron?

    Dill Weed

  • xHWA says:

    Why, Dill Weed, it would mean that Ron should be buried, of course. He is dead after all.

  • Dill Weed says:

    I thought Ron said he had been possessed by the devil or something.

    Dill Weed, Jr. says, “Brussel sprouts are good food – for rabbits.”

    Dill Weed

  • Weinland Observer says:

    If the pope died that would cancel out Ron as he wouldn’t be able to be the Great False Prophet as Ron stated he was. That’s the reality of the matter. I don’t think breaking a wrist is going to make that happen though. Just so you know, I read that off BBC world. I don’t follow Vatican news or anything in that area.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    The fifth thunder hits for sure now — Walter Cronkite just died. (WO asks “Who?”)

  • Weinland Observer says:

    xHWA, 1975 was never a set date. An article by Armstrong clearly describes this and why and how the book 1975 In Prophesy came to have itts title. Why rewrite something? Read the article, it’s on Ron’s website under the articles section of the Biblical Truth page.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mike, I just typed the name on wikipedia. I did just ask “who?” in my head though and I still have that question until I read the article.

  • xHWA says:

    I don’t need to read Ron’s website to understand why HWA chose that date. It is perfectly clear from HWA’s writings that he did everything possible to cover up the facts surrounding that 72-75 prophecy after it failed. Starting with claiming its fulfillment came in the form of an advertisement in the Reader’s Digest.
    Probably not least among the things buried was that he stole the idea from the Jehova’s Witnesses who also chose that date.

    In my opinion what HWA says about 1975, after 1975, cannot be trusted. Even less so than what he said before 1975 can be trusted.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Okay. There is one prophesy that HWA did teach that involved dates. It was a dream his wife had, a vision where an angel stated Christ would return in that generation. Armstrong stated that since the dream came in 1917, Christ’s return would have to occur when those who lived in 1917 are still alive. This prophesy means that it can only fail if Christ doesn’t return and nobody who was born in 1917 is around.
    I can’t and won’t try to convince you on the 1975 aspect. I understood it clearly after reading the article.

  • Dill Weed says:

    Speaking as a former JW, he was welcome to it.

    Dill Weed

  • xHWA says:

    There were many prophecies that involved very specific dates. So far I’ve given you two.
    Granted, one you could not read since you can’t get Adobe acrobat to work. Try Foxit Reader.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Dill, do JWs believe only 144000 will ever be saved? I remember reading that somewhere. Also, considering you listen to Hagee do you hold he is a racist?

  • Dill Weed says:

    They believe 144000 go to heaven to rule with christ. Everyone else lives in paradise on earth.


    Dill Weed

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    It was my understanding the feast last year was cut short, was to help us mentally prepare for the tribulation, when we might be held in prison or the like, or not be able to leave our homes due to nuclear winter, or disease.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    The feast is still being kept J and your mother explained it very well. It isn’t just about money either and it’s about helping people get out of going through the motions of religion. It is about hearing God’s message every day. I’m not going to any feast sites. I can’t. However I still keep the feast. During nuclear winter etc, the feast will still be kept as Ron said no matter where you are even if it’s in a cage.
    J, does UCG still require third tith? Also, apparently they had a feast site in my small city.. Well it’s not mine, but you know what I mean.

  • Observer says:

    Hi WO: I hope you are enjoying the Sabbath so far. One of the things I enjoy doing on the Sabbath is to “fellowship” by e-mail with those who I stay in contact with. It is not a lot of people but those who I have developed a closer relationship with over the past 9 months. For a very long time, in the beginning, I did not have anyone to fellowship with by e-mail or anything else. It was lonely for sure, but I know that it was part of God’s plan to establish me firmly in the truth. My family and others can never say that I was “love bombed” or influenced in any way by anyone from PKG. It simply didn’t happen. You have come to the Truth in a similar way (though our backgrounds are very different). When the first timeline “failed” I had no one to question, talk to, bounce ideas off, etc. except God. I went back and listened to past sermons and God helped me to understand even before the 50th Truth was given, not everything of course, but enough. Really, it was hardly even a “bump in the road”. God is faithful and merciful. He will sustain you even if you are not able to have direct contact with His Church. It could very well be part of His plan in establishing you and preparing you for whatever job He has for you to do, both during the Tribulation and on into the new age.

    I will not give you my “two cents” about doing homework on the Sabbath. My opinion is not important. I’m not even sure what I think about it and who knows how much my own past still influences my thinking. I have my own work cut out figuring out what is acceptable for me to do, how I can properly keep holy what God has set apart from the beginning. If your heart is right before God, He will show you. We will always make mistakes, never be perfect, but, as He teaches us we repent, obey, and move forward. I hope you have a great day. : )

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Hey Observer. I just read some of the things on Dill’s blog and learned a bit more about some of the people I talk to here. I did indeed learn that althoug hour backgrounds are different, some of the things we are going through and are not going through are similar. I can see how the fact that you are older than I am might end up causing more people to realize that you have changed. God works things out for everyone though and makes some things easier or harder. I’ll tell you right now that I am absolutely glad I don’t live in a traditionalist religious family. I can only imagine how hard it would be for someone my age after taking a stand such as “I will not go to insert place of worship on insert date and will keep the Sabbath. Even worse would be “I’m not going to pray that way.” If I was in a traditionalist household no matter from what culture or religion, I doubt that I would be able to casually mention Ron or Armstrong and what I read/listen to once in a while.
    Enjoy the Sabbath. Who knows. Maybe it will have been done once you read this and then in that case I hope you enjoyed it. Read your text when I read your text.
    P.S. Do you get to any small group gathering? I’m just curious to know whether not everyone in our area is on theri own. Also, I heard last sermon that after ordaining Terry to Senior elder there may be further ordinations and divisions within Canada. I hope AC gets one. I doubt they would break them up province by province for now but then I could be wro ng and many more could be called than what may be guessed.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I have come to the conclusion that love bombing is not one of Weinland’s recruiting tactics, at least not in the early stages of the recruitment. He doesn’t let anybody in who is not pre-washed and already demanding to join. A recruit must have already decided on their own that Weinland speaks for God.

    And how does Weinland find these people? Internet advertising. It’s a vanishly tiny demographic, but so is the demographic of people who really think that buying a pill from a spammer will make their equipment larger and therefore women will seek them. If there weren’t people like that, we wouldn’t have spam like that in our email.

    With Internet advertising, Weinland can find these people. Actually, they’re people just like him. He often brags in sermons that he instantly “knew” that British Israelism was true when his father told him about it. No need to research or even read the bible. He needs people who don’t use reasoning and logic to decide what to believe. Weinland will rely on that characteristic more and more in the future as he continues to adjust the current timeline and then changes to a new one.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I agree with much of what you said. House to house evangelism is condemned in the Bible. Yes, advertising is okay. As for why we have spam and junk on email inboxes, I can’t quite get it. I have a feeling it has to do with several things as I have junk in my email but not in my cog-pkg future contact/Mike contact account.
    I am glad that you are convinced that love bombing isn’t a technique for recruting as recruting isn’t attempted. If it were, you wouldn’t be disfellowshipped if you were rich and went off course. On this blog Mike, I have not only noticed that your word is law but that it is respected. Once you give a verdict on a matter, not too many seam to go against it. In your oppinion, I wouldn’t have been brainwashed but rather just found the lake, thought it was beautifuful, and took a swim, afterwords deciding I’ll stay there and still soaking wet. I believe that I have been washed and cleaned many times and counting. How’s that on a spiritual plain. Hey I just recalled the words on living water and food. I’m at the table, am handed more spiritual food each week, and also have to keep up with everything else that has been set for me to eat. That in turn made me think of something physical, breakfast. Similar situation there, without the water. My favorite today. A food of my birthplace. I hope I didn’t make anyone hungry with this post. If I did you know where to get food, physically.

  • xHWA says:

    J – “So much for revering the man, and then completely changing what he taught, claiming “new truth”.”

    Yeah, I wonder about that, too. A few things make no sense to me.

    It makes no sense to me to claim that HWA was an Apostle and Elijah who restored all things but didn’t prophesy. As an Apostle he restored all doctrine, but as Elijah (who represented all the prophets) he didn’t prophesy? Even though clearly we see from recordings and his writings that he did.

    It makes no sense to me that Ron is only a prophet sent to proclaim the Tribulation (prophets do not establish doctrine, they only reinforce it), but here we have a man who restores doctrine and changes what the Apostle taught and gets brand new doctrine too?? So, is he an Apostle, too?

    So, the Apostle/Elijah didn’t restore all things, in fact he had things WAY wrong (Jesus created??? No need to travel for Feast?? These are MASSIVE things!). The Apostle/Elijah never claimed to have brand new truth, but only restored truth lost 1900 years ago – so, is the new prophet/Apostle greater than the Apostle/Elijah?

    None of this makes any sense.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    WO: I don’t know about people agreeing with me always. Take yourself, for example ;). People are free to agree or disagree as they choose. I do appreciate when people keep an orderly, civil conversation going.

    Thinking about your analogy a bit, I can go with that. I differ in the details though. You’ve swum in a sewage pond of conspiracy theories and Internet religious crackpots, choosing one to follow to dine at his table set with food long past its expiration date (HWA’s doctrines) and other unmentionables (Weinland’s prophetic interpretations). Sort of like this movie I saw a part of once, people thought they were living a life of luxury, but in reality their minds were hooked to machines that provided a false reality, while actually they were in a wasteland. Wish I could remember the name of it it, or maybe it was a Twilight Zone episode.

    There’s still over 8 months before the Days of Unleavened Bread when you hope to get permission from your parents to join up. I hope you’ve shared the posts on my blogs where you’ve posted.

    J: I was at feasts like that. We lived in a tent for a week in the dusty piney woods in Texas. Also had to attend the DoUB for the full week, and not one but two services every day. Did your mother discuss Weinland’s statement at the LGD sermon last fall that there wouldn’t be a FoT this year, not even half of one?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Elijah wasn’t to reveal everything, just to restore knollege. If I have am and someone says “I will restore your memory,” that doesn’t mean that I remember everything I will ever remember. Think on that one.

    So Mike I take it that there is more that is wrong with me other than believing what I believe about religion. If you think I listen to religious crackpots, do you have any better suggestions?
    I may ask permission earlier. I contact cog-pkg to find out what is offered if I do.
    Trust me, I would have believed a higher truth and sincerity quotient on Weinland over the likes of Ervin Bakster and John Hagee anyday, even before I believed Ron.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Well, I’m not promoting Armstrongism, but if that’s what you want to believe, there are alternatives to Weinland who don’t focus on prophecy but rather on messages about how to live your life. I’ve heard good things about Al Buchanan’s group. My mother listens to the Big Sandy CoG. These groups have Internet services, and even streaming video.

  • xHWA says:

    WO – “Elijah wasn’t to reveal everything, just to restore knollege.”

    That sounds nice and all, but that’s not what the Apostle/Elijah said. He said God spoke through him, and when his message went around the world the end would come – not before and not after. That’s precisely what he said. His message was complete.
    And that’s precisely how it was understood. As evidenced by Gerald Waterhouse’s statement that if HWA died before Jesus returned, then the Bible was wrong.

  • xHWA says:

    I like that Mike said “I’m not promoting Armstrongism”.
    And since that’s not what is going on, I will add that I agree about Al Buchanan’s group. It really is far less abusive. I know Al personally, and his congregation as well. I’ve spent much time with them. I’ll parrot what Mike said, “not that I am promoting Armstrongism, but…” you can do a whole lot worse than the Belleville COG.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I don’t know much about this Waterhouse person. I do know that the end did begin coming. Matthew 24 describes the Abomination of Desolation, states various signs of it’s coming that happened both physically and particularly spiritually and that after this the end would come and start with the abomination of Desolation.

    Mike, for the record if Ron was indeed proven worong and I don’t feel he is wrong and will be proven right, I would probably not look in to other COG splinters but would think of it as something I can turn to in repentance if the Tribulation were to start. It would be more of islam/occult/whatever I can glean from any sacred text.
    This has a big if in it though.
    Also, this is to anyone who suggests I will be lost when i find Ron to be wrong, which again I state won’t happen as he is right.
    When did Waterhouse make that statement?
    P.S. On his last sermon Armstrong stated he believed he might get close to 140 years if god allowed him to do so but that he didn’t know when he would die. That’s where he saitt m many were like vultures waiting for him to die. Actually I read the sermon.

    One question for anyone who knows the answer. I know that there were local ministers in the church at the time along with elders, dekons, and evangelists. Yet, ARmstrong still give sermons. Did those who attended services listen to a sermon from Armstrong and from the local pastor? Or did Armstrong give sermons occasionally in which case all would listen to them on the Sabbath? I would greatly appreciate an answer to this as I would like to know more about how things worked back in the day. Thanks!

  • Observer says:

    Hi WO: I just got back from a nice walk. Thought I had better go before it rains. We are living at our summer home and I can never get enough of the beauty of God’s creation that surrounds us here. Incredible!

    Dill Weed has a nice friendly site with not as much traffic as here. I will probable check out what he has to say about today’s sermon but if he’s just looking for prophecies to write about there probably won’t be much to say. LOL

    You mentioned our different backgrounds. I was probably in church before I was a week old, two at the most, for Sunday school and church in the morning and then another service in the evening. It was all I knew and it was very safe. I had a love for the Bible and for praise and worship for as long as I can remember. But to be honest, I have been “weird” for a long time now : wouldn’t lie to my kids about Santa, felt that Halloween was wrong, wouldn’t do the Easter bunny/egg thing (felt that the resurrection should be the focus and the rest was a distraction) , wouldn’t sing certain “worship” songs, was appalled at some of the things that were out there as highly recommended Christian reading (The Purpose Driven Life and Left Behind Series come to mind) etc. and all of these things required battles to one degree or another. I was an unfit mother because of Halloween LOL. It’s funny now but it wasn’t so funny back then. All those little skirmishes prepared me for bigger battles later on and God has always given me a way to obey Him when I was willing to do it. Being in church one week and gone the next was not the hardest thing I have ever had to do but it ranks up there. : ) It must have been mind boggling for most of the congregation, though, because I had actually been the worship leader the week before I left and had, between songs, shared with them how God had miraculously saved my daughter, her husband and two babies from certain death from an electrical fire in their apartment two nights earlier. I realized later that the fire occurred on the night of the first Sabbath that I had kept and that it was also the day of Atonement. It took me a week to “clue in” that Sunday worship had to go. I had thought that I could do both. God showed me differently. How hard can it be to obey a Heavenly Father who would do EVERYTHING for me , including protecting my family members who didn’t give Him the “time of day”? It was the ones who responded to the 911 call that called it a miracle and I just happen to agree.
    We serve a merciful God and I’m looking forward to the sermon today on that topic. Talk to you later. : )

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    I was fortunate that I never had to sit through one of Waterhouse’s epic sermons. Or perhaps it was a regular sermon repeated 3 times in a single sitting. Back in the olden days, each church had its own minister who gave the weekly sermons. The only times I had to listen to HWA was at a feast. I remember one LGD where he talked for around 4 hours.

    WO, I’m not surprised by your response. You seem to be unsatisfied with the answers close to home and are looking for answers in all the wrong places. When you think you’ve found an answer, you really should be asking some more questions. Just because someone has a different answer doesn’t make it the right one.

  • Debbie says:

    Mike, it is quite a coincidence that you mentioned the Twilight Zone. I am chuckling and I can’t resist.

    Picture this ( Twilight Zone music playing in the background ) The two self-proclaimed witnesses sitting in their living room – both sipping on a fine wine from a bottle they puchased while on the Mediterranean Cruise – looking out at the expanse of the luscious and freshly cut greens of the golf course just outside their window –

    Witness #1 speaks ” What was that noise? – I think it was the 2nd Trumpet – Our prayers have been answered ”

    Witness #2 gets up to take a closer look out the window and then speaks ” No, that was just a big truck going by on the freeway”

    Both go back to sipping on their fine wine – The music fades

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mike, Thanks for the info and advice. All we can do is to learn all we can and do the best we can from what we know and don’t know.
    I stil believe that anyone who knows me would know exactly who I am by reading some of these posts. The main thing is that this doesn’t apply to everyone who doesn’t know me. A 4 hour sermon, now that sounds interesting. There was much back in the day. Weekly sermons, various magazines, a Bible Study course, Bible Studies: Those who followed God were awesomely blessed then. This is so today, but in other ways.

    IObserver, Enjoy your summer house stay. I know a friend who had a cottage right next to the beach in PEI. Unfortunately, the water is too polluted to swim in. It’s a similar case in the Petitcodiac River, and for anyone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about it’s a river that was polluted massively due to coasway construction. I know a time is coming when those pollution problems will be a thing of the past and the very ocean floors, mountain ranges, and deserts will become fertile land. I have a feeling agriculture is going to be huge in the World Tomorrow.
    As far as Santa goes I think I may have told my parents much about him before they did as where I used to live Santa was much more minor. Christmas in Europe generally is as wwell. As far as Halloween, it worked out perfectly. I was called when i had become too old for the activity.
    Well, by for now. The sermon is going to be on s so I am anticipating it. more to learn, more to pray about, and more to study in the coming week.

  • J says:

    So I came across this scripture in 1 Corinthians 10…

    “1 I don’t want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters, what happened to our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. God guided all of them by sending a cloud that moved along ahead of them, and he brought them all safely through the waters of the sea on dry ground.

    2 As followers of Moses, they were all baptized in the cloud and the sea.

    3 And all of them ate the same miraculous food,

    4 and all of them drank the same miraculous water. For they all drank from the miraculous rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ.

    5 Yet after all this, God was not pleased with most of them, and he destroyed them in the wilderness.”

    So, was Paul lying? He is claiming the existence of Jesus Christ during the time of the Exodus and Moses.

    However, Ron believes that Jesus Christ did not exist until he was born in the flesh.

    So two possibilities:

    – The Bible is wrong and Paul is a liar.
    – Ron Weinland is a blasphemer.

    Who would you believe, Ron or the Apostle Paul?

    That CANNOT be a mistranslation. How the heck do you mistranslate “and that rock was Christ”. It’s clear as day.

  • Observer says:

    J; You overlooked the 3rd possibility. Verse 4 actually says: “for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (King James Version) Even as we, as believers in Christ, ‘drink’ of the spiritual Rock which has gone before us … Christ has already died for our sins …. those in the desert with Moses ‘drank’ of the spiritual Rock as they looked forward to His coming, the coming of the Rock which followed them (in time).

  • xHWA says:

    O – “the Rock which followed them (in time)”

    You mention “in time”. As if to say that “follow” means to “come later in time”.

    “Follow” in I COR. 10: 4 is from the Greek word “akoloutheo”, which literally means “join the road”.
    From ἀ a (as a particle of union) and κέλευθος keleuthos (a road); properly to be in the same way with, that is, to accompany (specifically as a disciple).

    So we can see that it meant to follow after, as in to accompany on the road. Not come later in time.

    Thayer defines it like this:

    1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him
    2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple
    2a) side with his party

    Note how this has nothing to do with coming later in time. I would caution against taking an English translation (eg. follow), and then assigning a Greek word a wholly improper definition based on the other meanings of the English. The English may be able to fit the idea of “come later in time”, but it is exceedingly difficult to get that from the Greek. One need only look at the other places there this Greek word is used.

    What Ron (and those who follow him) is doing with this word would be would be akin to me doing this to Matthew 16: 24 —
    “If anyone desires to [arrive centuries] after Me [in time], let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and [arrive centuries after] Me [in time].”

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I don’t know much about Greek. I do know the lord our God is one. Always have, always will.

  • xHWA says:

    Why, WO. Again with something we agree completely upon.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “WO: As Mike said, the quote from Aggie/ Purple Hymnal was not in the sermon. “

    Mike, to my knowledge and reading back through the comments, never said any such thing. This post was prior to my downloading the sermons before they were edited, and posting them uncut on the blog. Besides which, we have a former church member (Kirrily) confirming the same thing, and WO even admits my sermon summaries are good.

    So I repeat, Observer, what are you on about? And at least you’ve stopped flattering and ego-stroking the kid, which was getting sick, and quite frankly, more than a little creepy.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Oh, here it is, I noted the timestamp on the post, it’s at the 15:04-17:21 mark, at least in the RealAudio file it was, while I was listening to it at the time.


  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Let’s try to clear this up. Rotten Ronnie’s statement of interest was during the announcement portion of the services, not the sermon portion. The announcements have been redacted from the file currently available on the PKG website. I don’t believe there are any discrepancies except in our understanding of exactly what we’re talking about.

    And for the record, the transcript on Weinland Watch is quite accurate. I don’t believe that Observer is saying that the transcript is inaccurate, just acknowledging my prediction that it wasn’t on the file that she had. In the same fashion her statements are 100% believable that the sermon file that she had for the sermon following ideaCity did not have Weinland’s statements that his presentation was on Thursday.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “(Jesus created??? No need to travel for Feast?? These are MASSIVE things!)”

    Don’t forget the laxity of DoUB observance. That one really blew my mind.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “My mother listens to the Big Sandy CoG. “

    Glad she only listens. Reading between the lines about some of the internal politicking in that group on AW, Havir sounds like quite the self-righteous little despot. He disfellowshipped half his council, because they wouldn’t bow their heads to HIM when he gave the opening prayer at the council meeting.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “you can do a whole lot worse than the Belleville COG.”

    Or the UCG folks in your city.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “One question for anyone who knows the answer. I know that there were local ministers in the church at the time along with elders, dekons, and evangelists. Yet, ARmstrong still give sermons. Did those who attended services listen to a sermon from Armstrong and from the local pastor? Or did Armstrong give sermons occasionally in which case all would listen to them on the Sabbath? I would greatly appreciate an answer to this as I would like to know more about how things worked back in the day. Thanks!”

    There were often “tape sermons”, where cassette tapes of evangelists from Headquarters were distributed to all congregations (by postal mail), “to be played in ALL congregations on such and such a date”.

    HWA always gave the sermon (and it was almost always “the two trees sermon” during the Feast transmission.

    I reiterate my statement about the UCG folks in your area, WO. They’re definitely not my cuppa, but they’re 1000000000% better than drinking the Flavor-Aid of Ronald Weinland.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    Forgot to add, by the early ’90s, tape sermons had begun to be superseded by VHS. The sermon instituting the changes was on video.

    Weekly sermons by the local pastor were also recorded, and copies kept with the church librarian; if for any (sanctioned) reason you were unable to attend services, you were required to sign out the tape from the library and listen to it again. Since members who missed services often didn’t last very long, most of the people signing out tapes did so, either in an attempt to look like they were being “godly”, or because they wanted to reinforce what they had heard, the previous Saturday.

    When I think back on how many Waterhouse specials I’ve actually sat through, and that I can still remember, it almost boggles my mind. One memorable Feast sticks out for me, where they had a Spanky/Waterhouse double bill. Those were some looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong days. 😯

  • Observer says:

    Aggie/Mike: Actually I did say that the comment attributed to Ron did not sound right. There was something familiar about it but I couldn’t bring it back. I was thinking about it today and I remember the comment that I had in mind. I was listening to the sermons back then by the way; several times in fact. Ron was telling people that they shouldn’t be e-mailing people that they didn’t know simply because they showed some interest in PKG. He pointed out that it was dangerous because of the demonic activity going on. To make matters worse, some were endangering others by mass e-mails with lists of PKG members included. Ron said that it was not loving your brother to put them in danger in this manner.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Aggie, I don’t know anyone in UCG in my area just that there are some in my area as they have a Bible study group listed on the site. In any case, I am not planning on attending any kind of service as I would have to ask my parents for permission. While they are okay with me learning what I learn, I haven’t tried entertaining the idea of me attending a cog-pkg service if it was located anywhere nearby. I just might say something like that one of these days. I do promise you one thing, and it is that when I do ask my parents for further permission to have more help from cog-pkg I will tell you what they said to me. For the record, leave Observer be as Observer is just one of several nice people I contact here. Also, get the record straight and get your Observers sorted out if at all possible. Speaking of nice people, I appreciate you being nicer and talking to me more kindly and directly. There was a time when I felt like some of the things you were saying were going to force me to cease from posting here. Again, thanks for your increased friendliness!

    Observer, I remember those days before the sermon. There was a time when Ron would announce names of those baptized and it got to a point where he stated that the names shouldn’t be mentioned because of the kinds of people who were listening in. I saw where Ron was coming from. Contrary to common belief, names are powerful and a lot can be done to someone by their name being posted. This is why I have been fairly caucious on what I say and I have learned from this website that you can do a lot conversation-wise and do it safely. People know quite a bit about me here and still don’t know exactly who I am. Whoever people here are specifically, most seam fairly decent though.

    P.S. A question for everyone. Is there something that I said in the past before stating my age that you were more fully able to understand after I stated I was 15? Just curious.

  • Observer says:

    xHWA: Concerning “the Rock that followed them” … your explanation does not make any sense. Would Christ, the Rock, be a disciple of Moses? Hardly. In that case the Rock should be leading them and they should be following the Rock. I like the definition of the Greek word that you gave, “to join the road” since Christ did join the road (the narrow road) so to speak when He lived as the son of man, being tempted in every way as we are but without sin. To join, in this sense, also implies later in time.

  • Observer says:

    WO: I think you said something about not being baptized until the Milenium but I’m not sure. Seems like a long time ago. LOL

  • xHWA says:

    O – “your explanation does not make any sense.”

    Doesn’t matter if it makes sense. I didn’t offer you an explanation, merely the proper usage of the Greek word. Do you deny that is the proper usage of the Greek? If so, bring that up with Thayer, or Strong’s. If not, then you also preclude your own counter-explanation.

    To be a disciple is not the only definition. Your attempt at redirection gives me pause, as if you are knowingly attempting a deception. The primary definition is “to accompany”, as I clearly pointed out.
    Ron is not practicing proper Hermeneutics whatsoever.

  • Mark says:

    ” like the definition of the Greek word that you gave, “to join the road” since Christ did join the road (the narrow road)”

    This is the central problem I have with your “religion”. Christ didn’t “join the road (narrow road)” He WAS the narrow road. Christ is the great divider. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

    You do not believed the gospel (yet), which is simple and plain. Ron’s cult, and all cults for that matter, do not believe the plain truth of who Jesus claimed to be and what He said gives someone eternal life.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Here’s a link to the March 15, 2008 sermon with announcements. The timestamps are earlier in this file than what Aggie has, perhaps the Real Audio file had the prayers and music which this file doesn’t have. The section of interest begins around 10 minutes in this file.

    If this chases anyone off, please let us know before you disappear.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mike, thanks for the link. I;ll check i t out tomorrow. For now, I’ve got to go hit the hay.
    Observer, That’s right. I could get baptized a few months before May 27, 2012 but it would have to be squeezed in to the sixth trumpet. What I was saying there was that perhaps in the future if it was okayed I could attend somewhere nearby, but that’s unlikely.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Aggies link to the Weinland Watch Post from Ron’s sermon quoting Ron : “I went to some of these after I got back because I’ve been told by a lot of different people now coming all the way from Australia as well that it’s becoming a problem out there. And a lot of you are communicating with each other and you are communicating with some people out here who are sick.”

    Yep – one of these ‘lots of people’ was me – dobbing in people from here in Australia (looking at blogs, other websites relating to ‘the end’ etc). O: My memory in this regard is clear as a bell 🙂 Now that Mike has put up the link (which I myself will not listen to again) – it’s up to you. My bet? You’ll stick around, but probably silently. You will not be able to help yourself 🙂 I understand the type.

    I keep my word – I said whilst in PKG I would NEVER look at another relegious site, or go to blogs such as this. AND I DIDN’T.

    Likewise, when I left PKG, I gave my word I would NEVER listen to a thing Ron has to say EVER AGAIN. AND I HAVEN’T, AND I WON’T!

    I am here to bag Ron, and MOCK him – because it is helping me heal – and I need healing. Hopefully my sharing my experience here will also keep people out.

    I don’t deserve you guys as my ‘safe place’ (and you have provided me a safe place) because I was waiting for you all to start dying because of your mocking (not eagerly because I am not sick!) but expectantly because I TOTALLY believed Ron. That would have been a confirmation that he was who he said he was.

    Thank you all for not only forgiving me, but for letting me be a part of this. It truly is helping me so very much – I know a lot of you can understand.


  • Observer says:

    Mike and Aggie: Thanks for the link. The admonition given here was not the one I was thinking of but I am glad that I was able to hear this one in its full context. Aggie quoted it accurately but left out the preamble that put it in the proper context. (essential for understanding) I won’t elaborate; it’s there for anyone who wants to listen to it. I am in total agreement with what Ron says there. Wo’s and my participation on this blog is completely unrelated. For one thing, it is not our blog. For another we are not in any way connected to pornography or other perversions.

    xHWA and Mark: We could go round and round with this and get nowhere. Suffice it to say that you cannot prooftext one obscure scripture and then make allegations of blasphemy or lying as being the only two possibilities as J has done. Also, I didn’t get my understanding of this scripture from Ron. I’m not sure how he understands it.

    Kirrily: I don’t understand the mindset that says that mocking brings healing. I believe that God teaches that healing comes from forgiveness and not allowing any root of bitterness to grow up in your heart and mind.
    As for not being able to help myself – I agree – none of us can. That’s where God’s mercy comes in, in a big way.

  • wWeinland Observer says:

    Kirrily, what do you mean by sticking around here silently? You can’t both be here and not or post and not post. I’m sure you have a good explanation. Let’s hear it!

    Also, I feel bad for you from your last post. I can understand what you went through. I’m not going to suggest you believe Ron here. I just wish you wouldn’t feel plesure in mocking. You seam to have a good life from what you posted here. My advice, just move on. No need to feel pain. You found something that you thought was true that you now think is a lie. Again, my view on that isn’t important. However, I would incourage you to not waste time mocking. mocking does not always hurt who you are mocking. It does create a mindset of feeling you are better because you mock someone else. Remember how you stated you learned many things from Ron although you don’t believe him? Maybe this was one of them. I admit this is something I have been able to see about myself in the last couple of years. I never did like slander but I would mock where I felt it was justified. This is something I have had to repent of doing and one of my battles. I can however understand why you like talking about Ron here. Maybe your reason is more serious than mine. Whereas I came here just to find a place to talk about Ron you came here because you felt Ron was false and wanted to share it. Share but don’t mock. mocking doesn’t just equal making fun of Ron by the way.
    Please don’t take any offence to what I just posted. I’m not an expert: never was and may never be. I do have an ability to understand people and like helping them out when I can. Help isn’t just help with knowing truth. Sometimes and most times nowadays it often gets right down to physical help. Again, you might just find it funny that someone who is only 15 is trying to help someone in your position. I can understand that but I know you probably won’t feel that way. Later. As a song titled Move Along (youtube states in the chorus)
    Speak to me, when all you got to keep is strong
    Move along, move along like I know you do
    And even when your hope is gone
    Move along, move along just to make it through
    Inspirational song that is.
    P.S. Two complements for you. Your writing is great. Computers can take care of spell check. You on the other hand can take care of the writing as you do. You could go places with it. Write on!
    Also, I hope people you know think this about you as they should. When I first came here you said you thought I was good-natured etc. You thought I was fairly decent and kind and I believe you still think this. I can say that right back at you. For someone who went from sect to sect and all the pain you experienced I am impressed by the way you still live life fully. You’re not in a corner feeling sorry for yourself that’s one thing I am certain of. My view on religion and entering a group or belief, quote momentarally created, “Enter not ignorently. Bring a flashlight and ask for the window to be opened. If it opens not, flee and enter not. If it opens in a way that makes for a clear view, look inside. Observe all therein, judge what you observe, and when and if certainty of well-being and safety comes, knock on the door, ring the bell, and enter the house.”

  • xHWA says:

    O – “Suffice it to say that you cannot prooftext one obscure scripture”

    I must ask, do you even know what prooftexting is? I certainly didn’t prooftext anything. I gave the proper definition of a Greek word. And that definition is not obscure.

    And once again, your attempt at redirection gives me even greater pause, now this second time that you’ve done it. But no one is falling for it.
    You’ve prooftexted one scripture, wholly redefining a word (and thus affecting all instances of that word) to suit your preconceived idea, and when you were called out you had the unmitigated gall to accuse Mark and myself of doing precisely what you’re doing. You’re rewriting scripture, man. When are you going to insist on honesty from yourself?

  • todd says:

    lol….can’t keep myself from laughing…… again…. sycophant

  • Weinland Observer says:

    The oneness of God is so basic. It would be nice if all could grasp it. I believe Observer was discussing putting scriptures in to propper context.

  • todd says:

    wo….please look up the word “sycophant”

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    WO, you haven’t been in Kirrily’s shoes. Therefore you don’t know how much Ron affected her life and how she’s suffering as a result. Any suggestions along the line of “just get over it” are probably not welcome.

    People respond to adversity in different ways. Kirrily is welcome to mock Ron here as long as she feels the need.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Todd, I looked up sycophant. I’m trying to figure out whether you think I am one or whether Observer is one, but based on what I wrote earlier I think you are talking about me here.
    1. I’m being nice because I tend to be that way if I can help it.
    2. I give complements because there is nothing wrong with saying nice things about someone.
    For some reason some people here have a problem with people who try to be nice. I can’t quite put my finger on why this is the case. Anyone want to shed some light here?

    Mike, I admit I never did go through what Kirrily went through right on the spot. I needed no consideration to come to this conclusion. I just gave some advice that can be taken or left. I didn’t say Kirrily needs to not be here or to mock Ron. I just suggested that it is much easier when one can learn not to mock. Mike, trust me when I say that I used to love pulling the strings and mocking when I knew someone would have a problem with it. I used to have joy in that. I thought it was some harmless fun. Just saying that so you can consider where I was and where I am now.

  • todd says:

    i guess you’ve never heard the saying “flattery will get you nowhere”….LOL

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Todd, I never heard the saying but I did and do understand this. I didn’t write that to get me somewheree, just to give some advice. Where was I trying to get to Todd if you can take a guess or have a possibility?

  • todd says:

    that is for you to humble yourself and look at your motives. if you can’t see them on your own, you will not learn the very nature of your own sin.
    i can not make you see what you don’t want to see.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Todd, my motives were to help someone and to be nice. I asked you beccause I felt that you thought I had some other hidden agenda. I do not.

  • todd says:


  • J says:

    “Suffice it to say that you cannot prooftext one obscure scripture and then make allegations of blasphemy or lying as being the only two possibilities as J has done.”

    Hahaha, “obscure”. I like how if some scripture contradicts Ron, then it’s obscure.

    Instead of looking up “sycophant”, perhaps O and WO should look up “confirmation bias”.

  • Whisper says:

    So… by the by… when will the “event” of the first trumpet take effect… hit the healines of CNN… you know, like happen per GFW 2009? I’ve been glued 🙂 to my computer watching for stories about grass and trees and dag-nab-it they just wont report it! Prophecy written in the bible is not supposed to predict even further prophecy, it is supposed to predict with 100% accuracy a physical real event as “exactly as it means”.
    Can’t have those ol “Nuklear” es-plosions if the grass don’t a-start a-dieing, and real quick like!

    Where is all this dead grass & trees and the 10’s of thousands of deaths?

  • J says:

    False prophecies got you down? Too many meddling critics getting between you and your delusional beliefs? Get yourself a Jedi Knight.

    “These aren’t the prophecies you’re looking for….Weinland can go about his business….Move along.”

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Whisper, the first trumpet indicates what is to follow. A nuclear weapon doesn’t go off after the third of the grass is burned. It literally does the burning and a bunch of other stuff. J, you understand but don’t believe. Do you like the song that I quoted the chorus of?
    As for me not being on here to make my point, I will tell you that I had other plans today. It involves living life and talking to people online, people as in my friends, people I know very well. One thing is for sure and I don’t want to brag but seriously when Dill, Observer, or me: any three of us, do not post here, the number of comments decreases drastically.

    Kirrily, I look forward to hearing from you when you get on.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Aggie, I don’t know anyone in UCG in my area just that there are some in my area as they have a Bible study group listed on the site.”

    All the better. The less hierarchy, the less restrictive they are probably likely to be. That said, UCG is hit and miss, and varies from conservative to liberal Armstrongism, dependent upon the area (just as the old WCG did).

    Might be worth it to give the BS a go, since you want to fellowship with others observing the same rules (Sabbath/seven annual sabbaths/meats/fasting/etc.) It might also ease up on the feeling like you’re the only one in the world, so much so that you’re still hanging out here.

    Please note, again, I have no recommendations WRT UCG, as I believe they are as close to “classic” Armstrongism as it is possible to get, and no that’s not a good thing, IMO. As I have stated repeatedly, I state again: Even UCG is 1000000% better than PKG. And say what you will about them being just another closed high-demand religious group; they, out of all of the splinters, actually ARE “holding fast to the truth once delivered”. Especially in Canada, where staunchly conservative Armstrongism always ruled the day.

    Give the elder listed on the UCG Congregations page a call sometime; at least then you’ll be able to talk to someone who really has been around the block and back again, with Armstrongism, and who is still a believer (unlike the majority of us here). And after all, if you’re that firm in your own convictions and conversion, really what can it hurt?

  • J says:

    Sorry, WO. I don’t read your lengthy posts.

    One thing is for sure and I don’t want to brag but seriously when Dill, Observer, or me: any three of us, do not post here, the number of comments decreases drastically.


  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Your attempt at redirection gives me pause, as if you are knowingly attempting a deception. The primary definition is “to accompany”, as I clearly pointed out.
    Ron is not practicing proper Hermeneutics whatsoever.”

    Well, now that we know Observer is a Happy Homemaker, she reads more and more like a minister’s wife from the old guard of the WCG Classic era. Women were definitely not allowed to preach (and still aren’t, in all of the splinters), but the minister’s wives could spout back the AC bible jigsaw bullshit just as good as their hubbies, owing to their unaccredited Armstrongist education.

    Fess up, Observer; you’re not a deaconess or elder’s or minister’s wife now; but there’s no way you can’t convince me you weren’t one before. All the clues practically scream it from the rooftops.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “The timestamps are earlier in this file than what Aggie has, perhaps the Real Audio file had the prayers and music which this file doesn’t have.”

    Yep, I was going by the timestamp of the file as it was initially broadcast, before it was altered.

    Ask yourselves, PKG members and interested lurkers: If Ron is speaking “God’s truth” — why does it have to be edited?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Aggie, for the record I don’t come here because I need to. I come here because I want to. If anyone wants to challenge me to it I’ll take the challengge. Mike can make it official. I can stay off for that amount of time and come back without any damage whatsoever. That misspelling was on purpose.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “but left out the preamble that put it in the proper context. (essential for understanding) “

    So how come all the believers in Timeline One disappeared from the Ironwolf discussion after this sermon, if Weinland’s words were “taken out of context”?

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    O & WO: As much as I appreciate your ‘advice’ – neither of you get it – full stop. This time, I just can’t be bothered explaining it to you.

    What I would suggest, is you email an elder, tell them that you are participating with people who mock Ron, and see if he approves. Actually, why not email Wayne or even Ron direct. Say a big ‘hi’ to them for me.

    O: listen to what Ron said in context….what a joke!

    Although well intentioned WO, your advice is understandable – but I use the mocking not in bitterness (the only bitterness and pain I hold is toward MYSELF, not Ron) but as a way of working through things in my mind. It’s just my way. Think what you will of me, but I am more than twice your age – and although I know your advice is well intentioned, it is obvious you have no understanding of my mindset or situation.

    You won’t until you leave, or Ron gives up. I’ll say it again – you WILL understand where I am coming from – then.

    O: for the record, I am not bitter toward RON – couldn’t give two hoots about him. IF, a big IF, I AM bitter – it would be toward MYSELF.

    Ha – guess I could be bothered explaining it after all ! 😉

    There are so many things that were engrained in my mind for the near 2 years I was with PKG, mindset etc – I have my own ways of working through them. I still hope that my ‘working through things’ here on this blog will help other people too – you never know.

    WO: About being here but being silent, I was talking about O. I thought for sure after he had listened to Aggie’s link he would go away – but stay silently. I was completely wrong.

    Is it just me everyone, or if YOU were a member of PKG, and listened to that link, would YOU be on a blog like this?

    Maybe it is me, but as I was the one (or at least one of the people) that instigated Ron’s very words spoken, I thought I had it pretty clear (again – I will not be listening to that link again just to see).

    I am glad you are here WO, don’t get me wrong – although it is annoying sometimes when you give ‘advice’ 😉 I say that with a kind hear toward you, as I know you know.

    I always did go into every ‘sect’ (I really only think that PKG was the only ‘sect’ i joined) with eyes wide open, mind wide open, but always believed and I thought PROVED things to myself from the Word. I must say, it was not until I discovered GTA that I really felt, um, too powerful to put in words, but just that I had ‘found’ the TRUTH. I had NEVER felt like that before – there were always questions, things that didn’t make perfect sense etc in the other groups.

    In saying that though, I never went about trying to DISPROVE anything I learned in GTA – for example, looking to see if it could be untrue (ie. GTA taught that it was Jesus that was ‘God’ in the old testament – that Jesus was the burning bush etc etc). I believed that through his studies and in the Word etc.

    But then when Ron said Jesus didn’t exist before being born of Mary, well, after studying that – well, that made sense TOO!!

    This is what I am finding so alarming now – that SO MANY THINGS DO MAKE SENSE!!! WHICH ONE IS RIGHT!!! (Remember, I THOUGHT God was leading me the whole time – when you find out He didn’t after about the 10th time, you can’t help but wonder if He is leading you at all).

    Shame – as God was meant to prove who He was working through, by EVERYTHING COMING TO PASS EXACTLY (YES EXACTLY) AS RON HAD STATED. Then everyone would have known who to listen to!! Get rid of all this confusion!!

    Yeah – one day. But I am no longer holding my breath.

    XHWA – still reading!! 🙂

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    “but left out the preamble that put it in the proper context. (essential for understanding) “

    So how come all the believers in Timeline One disappeared from the Ironwolf discussion after this sermon, if Weinland’s words were “taken out of context”?

    Looks like once again, O knew better than everyone else. We are all mere mortals in his/her company.

    Might look up the word superiority in the dictionary…….. 😉

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Seems to be a bit of sniping going on here. Without naming names here (more than one and on both sides of the debate), let’s reconsider what we’ve typed in before we press that bit “Submit Comment” button.

    Not wanting to shut down debate, hoping it could be a bit more thoughtful. Strong opinions are fine if expressed properly. If you disagree with someone, say so with some respect. And back up what you say with a fact or two. Possibly we can all learn a thing or two that way.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Guilty – sorry Mike.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    O: my apologies to you too by the way. I am too sensitive sometimes, sorry.

  • xHWA says:

    In the words of Rex the dinosaur from Toy Story: “Now I have guilt!”

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Yep! 🙂

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Okay. I’ll give this a shot. Is there anything I said I shouldn’t have said?
    Kirrily, When you stated that you find it annoying when I give advice you also stated you didn’t mean that literally. Would you like it if I stopped giving advice? I wouldn’t mind doing that.
    More appologies.
    Mike, I gave you a hard time several times. Sorry about that.
    J, I said a couple of things I shouldn’t have said. I gave you advice and didn’t need to.
    Dill, I made a comment a while back, one you didn’t take offence to. However I still shouldn’t have made it.
    Anything else I forgot?
    In the words of Perfect by Simple Plan, “i’m sorry. I can’t be perfect.”

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    WO: You have not offended me, just a little irritating when a 15 year old offers me advice on my behaviour and mindset.

    In saying that, I do believe you are offering this to try and help. I think that is sweet and kind – and THAT is what I keep in mind when I read your posts.

    Again with you, I am torn!! I feel many different emotions towards you!! Mostly, I feel like shaking you, telling you to wake up, then giving you a hug!

    As far as O is concerned, completely different kettle of fish. I am just too sensitive sometimes, and bite too quickly when all the right buttons are pushed (and they are being pushed).

    That’s why I apologised to O.

    I have never been good at writing when it comes to my emotions, and I get very frustrated as I can’t get them out – either verbally or written. I seem to be unable to convey my thoughts and feelings with true clarity. I can write about other things, but when it comes to my inner workings – I understand in my mind, but I can’t get it out!! SO FRUSTRATING!!

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Kirrily, I can understand if you think this way, but do you view me basically as someone who enjoys searching for truth and is taking a little stop at Ron to investigate and that I will eventually go off somewhere else? I’l tell you this , that there is something we have in common. Something other than Cog-PKg, more like something personality-related. I’m beginning to understand why you mock Ron. I just realized that mocking isn’t always based on hatred completely.
    Here’s something that will help you.
    Assuming Ron Is False: just for a second. What ill happen to me. Let’s list below.
    1. It’s not like I’m paying tithes, I don’t even have a job.
    2. I didn’t keep my life on hold.
    3. I learned a lot about the Bible.
    4. God wouldn’t have a problem as I was trying my best.
    5. I could say I would move on, but I should realistically say I could move forward.
    Please let me know if there are any other posibilities I should be worrried about.
    P.S. One thing I learned in time that God has shown me is how I have no right to criticize people. If I were a critic I wouldn’t just be someone who didn’t believe in Ron. I would be what I would called blunt and honest that would realisticly be filled with unnoticed hatred. I’m not saying this is you, just that this was me.
    I learned a lot, am learning more, and will continue to learn more with God helping me. If, and this is a big if but If I find proof beyond any doubt Ron is false I will be thankful for what I have learned and will not feel hurt in any way. Then again, this would be in a differrent case from your’s and to a person with different and much easier circumstances.
    That’s all for now. I don’t know why, but when I write to you I often don’t quite know how to stop. I can write in a much better style and form but I just feel that going about each post I write here as if it were an essay it would get too overwhelming. With all due respect to this blog it wouldn’t be worth my 24 hours.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Hi WO:

    Yes – I do believe, and do view you, as someone who enjoys searching for the truth. Yes, makes sense it’s personality related 🙂

    Mocking can come out of hurt too – like people react differently to being teased when at school. I (out of hurt) teased right back!! Others would just ignore it and not be bothered, others would react with violence, to the extreme, others would commit suicide.

    Please never underestimate the effects that Ron has on other people, because as you have rightly pointed out, you have not been that affected (in terms of having to change your life, tell your husband (in your case wife!!) that you have to go away to a feast and will need money to go, tithe your wages, buy 3 months worth of supplies for tribulation, not try to have a child even though as it is you are leaving it quite late etc etc – like I have.

    Please also, do not underestimate how others have indeed put their lives on hold due to Ron, just because you have not (as you do not need to). Again, elderly people showing their ‘Total Resolve’ are now in great financial difficulty because they wanted to prove to God their faith, in obeying Ron. People have spent great amounts of money, in what they thought was in obeying God, through Ron. People like Wayne (unless he has found other work now) would be in great financial stress as he displayed his own Total Resolve. I put having a baby on hold until ‘the world tomorrow’ for 2 years, tithed and gave offerings beyond my means – to show MY total resolve. WO: People HAVE put their lives on hold, and sometimes I feel you minimise this because you have not. Again, believing that nukes were going to go off between April and June 2008 ANY DAY – you can not help but LIVE DIFFERENTLY because of this knowledge alone!!

    Again, I do not blame Ron for this – it was MY CHOICE to follow him. I must add too, that I continued with my work, went out for dinners and movies. But again, you LIVE DIFFERENTLY believing that the end (beginning) is ANY DAY NOW. Surely you can see this?

    But, just like my analogy above about being teased at school, I have reacted to Ron being false by mocking him – because I am hurt, not bitter (angry sometimes yes, but the anger is at myself, but because that is very painful I sometimes deflect it back to Ron). I was and am very disappointed that Ron did not keep his word by admitting he is false, and LETTING HIS PEOPLE GO.

    The deepness in what you will experience when you discover Ron is false, is something that I have tried, but continue to fail, to put into words. It just cuts so deep. Maybe in time I can try and explain it again – but to do this takes reflection into my depths, and right now I just can’t do it.

    I too, have gained MANY positives from my experience with PKG – but to a MUCH greater degree, SINCE I have left.

    I have definately been given a mirror, and can see myself very clearly – and it is not pretty. I guess that is at the heart of my pain – to see your true self, in your true state – naked and ugly. When all your beliefs are stripped away, and you are standing there – alone, you SEE yourself for the first time. What drives you, what motivates you, what your true heart is, what your true mind is, your rebellion, your thought patterns, your love, your greed, your desires, your fears, your failures, your accomplishments etc etc – when you SEE, and I mean SEE yourself in a brand new light – well, it hurts.

    This hurt though, as bad as it is – can lead to GROWTH. As Dr Phil says, “You can’t change what you don’t acknowledge” – I say “You can’t acknowledge what you can’t see”.

    I SEE now, and I am in shock.

    The shock however, is wearing off (albeit slowly) – and the more I see, and see with greater depth and clarity, the more I can work on myself with God’s help.

    When you see your true nature, you know what you need to fight against. What your weaknesses are, and how you can use your newly discovered (seen) strengths to prevail against your weaknesses! The war is with OURSELVES – we are our own biggest enemy (Satan gets WAY too much credit I think!!). When you can truly SEE yourself in ALL aspects, your strengths can become your weapons against your weaknesses. Learning and gaining the ability to harness your strengths in this fashion is something else altogether.

    I was blind before, especially whilst at PKG – but it did START at PKG (revealing of yourself to yourself) but has grown expodentially since I left. This is a TRUE positive – but it has come through GREAT PAIN.

    This, I would say, is what you could prepare for in some small way. Again, I keep saying, the UNDERSTANDING of what I have said here will NOT become apparent until you LEAVE. You’ll just have to take my word for this. I am sure you have KNOWLEDGE of what I have said, but experiencing it is quite something else. Experience leads to the UNDERSTANDING.

    Like you say though, you are a lot less encompassed in all this than I was – so I am sure you will be better off, to a degree.

    I hope all this made sense 🙂

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    This thread has been quite lively over the past 6 days, but with 229 posts it’s a bit cumbersome. If I’ve managed to figure out WordPress, further comments on this post are disabled.

    But I’ve made a fresh post for the discussion to continue. Note any comments here you wish to respond to and click on over to make your response there.