Ronald Weinland Seizes Control of the Church of God Inc

In last week’s post on Don’t Drink the Flavor Aid, I described a 3-hour sermon from Weinland delivered on January 29, 2000 as he maneuvered for control of the Church of God Inc.

During the sermon of the following week, February 5, the tone changed. Early in February 5th’s sermon, Ron states that he knows there will be a split, no doubt about it. Those who don’t accept Ron should find another pastor. He canceled a trip to Tyler, Texas that weekend to stay in Toledo and deal with this grave crisis.

During the prior week’s sermon Ron had stated that he wasn’t going to hide anything by not sending out cassette tapes as normal. On February 5, Weinland said that he wasn’t sure whether or not he was going to send them out. Ron titled the sermon “For Unity, Nothing Will Remain Hidden.”  (Just in case you missed the irony, reread the paragraph.)

Weinland challenged the members by telling them that if they thought they were going to keep everything, they weren’t. He had corrected the board. The board had the gall to push Ron to find his true position, and he had pushed back with strength and authority by disfellowshipping some of them.

He read a letter from one of the board members that was very critical of Ron. After that, a survey was handed out among the congregation, asking whether the member agreed or disagreed with the following statements:

  • I have seen your [Weinland’s] fruit for the past few years and believe that you have been following Jesus Christ.
  • I do not believe in a congregationalist form of government ….., but believe that those matters are guided by Jesus Christ through His ministry
  • The issues before us is whether the congregation or the ministry administer the government …, I believe I need more time to study and pray about the subject in order to come to a definite conviction one way or the other.

(Downloadable PDF copy of the survey) After the surveys were collected, there was an intermission as Ron adjourned for 20 minutes or so to read them. When he returned, he had envelopes addressed to a number of members. Inside the envelope was a letter (downloadable copy). Without computer equipment or adequate time, these were obviously prepared in advance. Weinland spent the remainder of the sermon reading from the letter.

The letter reiterated his position and reasoning and then announced that those receiving the letter were not disfellowshiped but were no longer members in “good standing”. It ended with:

As this letter has been addressed to you, you know whether this probation period is being given because you need more time to prove matters to yourself or whether you have state [sic] opposition to this ministry, either directly or by divisive action on your part. ….. This probation period of seven week [sic], beginning with this Sabbath, means that you are no longer classified as a member in “good standing” until this matter is resolved.

Ron took an aside to point out that as members not in “good standing”, they were not eligible to vote during the corporate meeting the following weekend on whether to replace the bylaws with the Ron-friendly version.

He closed with: “With genuine love for full reconciliation and in the service of Jesus Christ.” One estimate is that about 3/4 of the approximately 20 families in attendance were made members not in “good standing”. That did not end matters, though what transpired after is less clear.

MP3 copies of the sermons are available for playing or downloading (right-click, then save-as to your hard drive).

Weinland “left the building” after the services and serving notices.  The members remained for awhile to sort through their reaction to these developments. In a letter dated Feb 7 (PDF download), Ron explained the reasons for the suspension of membership in the third paragraph:

The reason for giving those letters was based on what I believed to be the only option open to me to protect the church. Some people needed more time to pray and study about these matters and this seemed to be the only legal means to insure that they could, while at the same time protecting the best interest of the Church.

So the reason for this ecclesiastical action was not ecclesiastical, it was legal. Ron presumes to determine the best interest of the Church. Never mind that the bylaws set up a board of directors to handle the financial interests of the Church. In the fourth paragraph, Weinland talks about further ecclesiastical actions to seize legal control, talking about how he quelled a movement to have an emergency board meeting to fire Ron:

I had to explain to the individual seeking to call the Board meeting that his efforts were now futile, as I had already started the procedure to disfellowship one Board member and that I would not hesitate to disfellowship any other Board members who continued to threaten the welfare of the Church.

Lawyers were fully involved at this point, with Ron naming his own multi-partnered law firm. He defended his actions as being legal, and that the bylaws gave him great power. But after consultation with his attorneys, he had reached a new understanding of the legal situation and did not need to deal with the members. The only thing needed for him to control the situation was to disfellowship board members of the corporation which hired him. This allowed him to reinstate the members, never mind their spiritual deficiencies.

By this statement, he acknowledged that the letters handed out the prior Saturday were a legal maneuver rather than an ecclesiastical action. He ended this letter with “In Christ’s service and deep love to all”.

Weinland’s legal power was based on precedent, with no mention of any disfellowshipping powers given in the bylaws.  Therefore a matter that could be litigated. With litigation threatened, it seems that there was some negotiation that followed.  First there appeared to be an agreement that the departing local members would keep their share of the funds or about 1/3 of the corporation assets. Then Weinland changed his mind and said he would let them have a much smaller amount, calling it a gift. It’s unclear as to whether the splitters received anything at all in the end.

Further details on the turmoil from the opposite camp’s view is available in this post on the Weinland Watch blog and the comments of this post on As Bereans Did.

In a letter dated February 14, 2000 (PDF download) Weinland sent out the tapes for the prior two week’s sermons after all. These letterheads on all these letters included the phrase “Preparing for the Kingdom of God” as a slogan under the Church/corporate name “the Church of God”(Inc). (The logo was created by one of Terry Wrozek’s daughters. Terry became one of Weinland’s first “elders”, formerly delivering several sermons each year, but has not delivered one since October, 2007. During all the promotions of 2008, he was bypassed as others were promoted to evangelist and senior elder. Ron rectified this partially in the past week, rewarding his long-time ally and elder with a spot as senior elder.)

In letter, Ron indicated that there was an attempt by “some” to take control of the corporation.  Yes, there was an attempt.  But it was not an attempt by “some”, it was an attempt by “one”, Ronald Weinland, and was a successfully attempt as he seized control from the board that did already have control.

It seems that the turmoil was not fully under control, as Weinland had to set up yet another new PO box address in Toledo, replacing another recent PO box address in Toledo which had replaced a Temperance, Michigan PO box. In his February 14th letter, Ron claimed the church was reorganizing under that as a full name. While “The Church of God – PKG” was incorporated in New Jersey on February 11, 2000, the legal entity “the Church of God Inc” continues to this day with an address at the same Cincinnati PO Box address as Weinland’s church. There is also a tax exemption registration in effect for “The Church of God, Inc” but not a similar one for “The Church of God — PKG, Inc”. So it seems that “Church of God — PKG” remains as a “doing business as” name.

In this letter, Ron states that the corporation will be reorganized with no members, not even the board. I wonder if this is the actual case. I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it a corporation is a legal entity which must maintain a relationship to actual people. In the case of a for-profit corporation, this is done by ownership of shares. In the case of a non-profit corporation, this is done by membership. So I doubt that the Church of God Inc. is a corporation with zero members, nor could it be a stock corporation as a non-profit.

Ron’s spiritual idol, Herbert Armstrong, set up a separate corporation during the 1979 receivership crisis of WCG. This new corporation was a “corporation sole” with Herbert Armstrong as its only member. I highly suspect this is how the Church of God Inc. was reorganized, with Ronald Weinland as the corporation sole. In which case the Church equals Ron both financially and ecclesiastically in perhaps we should instead call it “The Church of Ron — Prophet Keeping the Gold”.

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102 Comments

  • J says:

    I see nothing Godly about this. This is a typical immoral, underhanded, corporate power play fueled by greed and a lust for power. Something instantly condemned by Jesus as being “of the world”. I feel like I’m reading the script to Oliver Stone’s “Wall Street” than hearing about the government of a church.

    Man, this is something out of 1984 or something.

  • jack635 says:

    “as members not in “good standing”, they were not eligible to vote during the corporate meeting ”

    When I read that, two words immediately popped into my mind:

    Treachery’s afoot

    This is an example of corruption, most likely stemming from the greed of con artistry. Money attracts con artists. I’m starting to think Ron is not drinking his own flavorade.

    Wow I just read J comment and I agree totally “This is a typical immoral, underhanded, corporate power play fueled by greed and a lust for power”.

    Ronald Weinland may think he is working for Jesus, but he is going against everything recorded in the book. He is a con artist and he is deceived by HWA’s ideals. Those two traits mixed together are a potent poison.

  • jack635 says:

    Now of course when confronted with this revelation, RW will say he has already repented of his selfish behavior and it was such a looonng time ago. Critics! “They’re gonna believe what they want to believe. Isn’t that the way it is?”

    I really hope one of his defenders doesnt say RW is being persecuted on account of the name of Jesus Christ.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “I’m starting to think Ron is not drinking his own flavorade.”

    I’ve been saying that since “If by Pentecost”, dude. No one ever listens to me.

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Man, this is something out of 1984 or something.”

    That’s really rich, coming from a UCG member.

    United Church of God — where it really IS 1984, now and forever!! 😛

  • jack635 says:

    I’m glad thats still available on the net. If by pentecost…..there you have it. Anything else would be quite insane.
    So I guess he prophesied that he would be quite insane. I think most cult leaders are insane. It’s a combination of con artistry and delusion. A deluded con artist is quite insane.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Welcoming everyone to my new location. I’ve given a few a preview, and now have publicized the location to the wider group.

    Still settling in and need to hang a few curtains, etc. Same commenting rules as before. The comment form will ask for an email, if you give one then great. If you don’t want to give your email address, you’ll have to fill in a reasonable sounding name for one such as “x@y.com”.

    WO: Don’t try to pull the crap here that you just did on my old blog.

  • Observer says:

    Mike: Thanks for abbreviating WO and my last comments. What needed to be said was said.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Nice new blog Mike. I personally like wordpress and no I won’t try that again. I didn’t need to post that anyway. I read your post and still believe Ron did exactly what he needed to do within the legal framework. If this didn’t work Ron would have just created a new corporation name. The bottom line is that God doesn’t work with a board. Particularly, I don’t understand why J doesn’t understand God’s principals of government.
    Thanks for the downloasermon links and letter links Mike. Is there a place where such additional info can be found?d

  • Whisper says:

    All the zeal of a corporate power play in a Church… these are the antics that keep oh so many away from any Church as the two concepts, Corporation and Church, are somehow not supposed to mix and when they do it is seen as even more evidence that there is no church, simply a continuation of Corporation my another means (Von Klausewitz’s famous saying in part :-).
    It’s not about the LAW it’s about how to re-make the already created church in ones own image. The LAW is simply a means to a goal, the course or map on what the obsticles are that are in your way to rule ones own Church?
    Ah, why adhere to the ones who hired you, simply disfellowship them and discontinue to voting rights of anyone who might not vote in your favor by placing them in “not in good standing” and you’ve got your very own German Democratic Workers Party elections where the rather limited vote is finally taken and the fledgling Nazi party is installed and voting is ripped right out of the LAWS so there are no more silly “people’s wantes” involved in ones organization… well except for the “desires” of the leadership that is.
    Mein Ron, your throne awaits you!
    …of course the for-runners of Rons government plan had a few problems, shall we say, along the way. I wonder if those problems are indicitive of the government style itself or just accidents along the way? Well, let’s see how Ron fairs, the real test is how the whole thing finally turns out in the end and with all the wild timelines and stop-gag fixes (50th truth?) this whole ship seems to have some serious water problems?

    🙂

  • Whisper says:

    …does this count as Mocking or am I simply strongly dis-agreeing?

  • xHWA says:

    Spoken directly by a member of the Board; a Board which I remind you was set up with by-rules specifically and intentionally in order to prevent one man rule like in the WCG (and in what PKG is now):

    “Ron was not legally allowed to take the money according to the byrules of the church corporation. Ron very loudly and angrily accused the board of insubordination and etc by refusing to go along with his order to spend the money on publications. Ron had retained a lawyer and was actively trying to take the money. In order to do that, he had to fire the board and change the byrules. This he did by disfellowshipping them.”

    The market was already flooded with publications; better publications than we could afford to put out. The idea was not to waste money on magazines and TV, but to serve the needy. Ron didn’t like that. There was already a nice website and a newsletter and a tape/video program and a phone-hookup program and Ron did a little travelling to preach on the side. He wasn’t satisfied. The Board was well within its rights to object. Then Ron wanted to start a parallel corporation with himself in full control of the funds for all the “scattered brethren” (he was only thinking of the poor brethren – and the kids — and the puppies, don’t forget puppies). What was the need? Two corporations only adds bureaucracy and complication. The Board asked him why he wanted this and he refused to explain. Well, control of the money was the need! So, failing to get approval for that scheme, he secretly devised a way to oust the board, silence the opposition, and install himself as sole head of the whole ballgame.

  • jack635 says:

    Whisper

    That is a good analogy of Ron’s takeover. One could liken it to how Hitler gained power in the 30’s.

  • jack635 says:

    Weinland Observer said:

    I read your post and still believe Ron did exactly what he needed to do within the legal framework

    No.
    He could have taken those faithful to him and started another church. It was all about the money! That is greed. Where does greed come from W.O.?

  • xHWA says:

    I apologize in advance for the length of the following rant.

    I tell y’all what, one foundational epiphany in my life was that Ron Weinland does nothing that Herbert Armstrong didn’t already do.

    Did Armstrong take over the WCG? Not specifically, but HWA was a hothead who wouldn’t defer to anyone else. That got him “fired” from the COG7. He started his own church, railing against some overarching governmental control over local congregations, claiming it was the “image of the beast“, and derived from the Catholic’s worship of Roman imperialism and the tradition of Nimrod. And why not say that? He was over a couple local groups and was just “fired” by a larger governmental unit. It suited him to teach that way.

    Later, as it suited him, he denied ever being a “member” of the COG7 (he claimed he “worked in cooperation” with them but was never a member but that is demonstrably false since he was a credentialed member of “the 70”; the second highest tier of COG7 government at that time). Having built himself into the one-man ruling “Apostle”, he came out railing against the local congregations, saying it was unbiblical and evil. He actually praised the Catholics for their governmental style. So much for “image of the beast”!

    And as Mike was correct to point out, the 1979 Receivership saw the “the appointed Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and, … the spiritual and temporal leader of the Church from its inception” ditch the WCG in Pasadena to hide out in Tucson where he could collect funds beyond the reach of the California government (he stated his contingency plan was to start a new corporation which would have been called the Philadelphia Church of God). Directly in violation of law and court order, Herbert Armstrong called for all moneys to be sent to him in Tucson, addressed and made out to him personally. THIS WAS ILLEGAL!!! He sent out his henchmen to “make it legal” by claiming it was Godly to defy the law.

    So why am I rambling on this way? 1) Ron defies the law as it suits him (it was illegal according to the corporate by-laws that set him as minister in the first place, to do what he wanted, so he schemed to have the by-laws changed), 2) Ron’s views on government change as he finds necessary to best benefit himself (boards were great when he was in UCG and when he was hired by the Board into the COG, Inc.; but later boards are bad! REALLY bad!), 3) Ron has no qualms about splits and starting new corporations (first he splits from UCG, then he wanted to split the COG, Inc. in two, then he re-formed into the PKG) — EXACTLY following the pattern Herbert Armstrong set before him!!

    I have to throw my vote in with Aggie on this one and say that I think Mike is completely right that Ron is not drinking any of his own Flavor Aid (maybe he did at first a decade ago but not any more), but is cold, calculating, self-serving, and clearly performing only the formula perfected by his mentor.

  • todd says:

    as i read this, the nazi comparison came to mind for me also.
    i also wonder what’s going on with our own government right now….off topic. sorry.

    it’s just amazing to me that this information is out there and the man still has followers. are they following in fear they may not make it to the promise land?

  • jack635 says:

    it’s just amazing to me that this information is out there and the man still has followers. are they following in fear they may not make it to the promise land?

    No Offense meant to the exPKG members, but I think some of them will agree with this statement:

    PKG motto should be:

    I don’t want someone I can believe in, I want someone who’s unbelievable.

    That is the seduction of a cult. The ideals are fanatastic and out of this world, and there are others with the same ideas and they become friends. Then the trap snaps shut.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    xHWA, Ron actually stated in the sermon he didn’t care about the money and wouldn’t mind starting over again. I’m listening to it. So you didn’t agree that Ron should have made publications to send to the scattered churches. Well, Ron wanted to worn everyone on what was happening. Ron left UCG because of corruption, smame with WCG. At this point in time were truths such as the Church era truth that stated the last era had arrived, the stones of the temple, etc. Who was given these truths. Was it the Board? Maybe you left because you didn’t repent of realizing that God didn’t work with a board? Ron had no need for your corporation or your cash. However it was his right to disfelloship those who are not following God. I’m learning a lot from the sermon and have only started listening to it. Lastly, Armstrong could do whatever was needed to continue doing God’s work. God’s church isn’t a corporation. It’s those being called out by God with God’s spirit, the Called out ones of God, the body of Christ. That’s all for now. I’ll keep listening to those sermons. Thanks again foor those links Mike!
    PS. xHWA what did the website consist of at the time.

  • xHWA says:

    WO, I’m not going to go into detail why I disagree with you. You already know my side. My point isn’t to change you, but give you info. Do with it what you will.

    “PS. xHWA what did the website consist of at the time.”
    The first iteration of his website was started by 1 person as a charitable gift to the group while we were still part of the UCG. Many local congregations were building websites back then. That’s really how I recall Vic Kubik’s website getting started. It was amateurish, but being constantly improved. Ron saw the potential and yanked the project away from the person who started it, giving it to one of the Board members. Evil? You decide. A professional service was hired to design and host the second iteration of the site. Traces can be found on the way back machine at http://web.archive.org/web/19981201072254/http://www.the-church-of-god.org/
    A later redesign, after they reincorporated into the PKG can be seen here http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://cog-pkg.org

  • jack635 says:

    xHWA:
    The internet is a great tool and has increased humankinds knowledge. Information is at our fingertips. If we cannot find what we are looking for, an online aquaintance can provide a link like you did. This little gem jumped out at me:

    We view our greatest service in these times to be the offer of aid and support to the scattered brethren

    That’s from Ron’s Church of God web site in 1998 Temprance MI.

    So how does a “church” go from the offer of aid and support to a requirement of 30% of your wages?

  • xHWA says:

    To emphasize Ron’s blatant hypocrisy, I would like to quote Ron’s own explanation for his leaving the UCG which I have taken from a document titled “Recent History and Formation of the CHURCH OF GOD, inc.“. Keep in mind this was posted on the COG, Inc. website much less than 1 year before Ron’s epiphany that government by board is evil.

    “In January of 1997, I addressed several issues of ethics, concerning the administration of UCG,aIA, with Council Members, Home Office staff, and the conference of elders. Those issues were not being answered nor openly addressed by UCG,aIA. Highest on the list was the mismanagement and improper depletion of reserves by $4.5M within one year. In most corporations there would by outrage, firings, and possible prosecution for such action. But within UCG,aIA there was no such reaction. Instead, there was a concerted effort to cover, excuse, and hush the truth. After waiting until the General Conference of Elders Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky in March, those issues were still not being addressed and I again sought action from the Council of Elders to take proper control of the Home Office according to the Constitution and Bylaws. After several months of inaction from UCG,aIA, I resigned May 30, 1997. I could no longer conscientiously support such an administration that was unwilling to carry out their responsibilities of decisive, prompt, and proper stewardship.”

  • xHWA says:

    According to Ron, the head of the church is the only valid leader and the board system is evil. If David Hulme (President of the UCG, AIA at that time) was hindered in an ungodly way by the evil UCG Council of Elders from spending that $4.5M referenced by Ron, then that expense was valid, and Ron’s defiant reaction was seditious and disobedient. He owes a lot of people an apology, not the least of which is David Hulme. In fact, he should repent and submit himself to David Hulme’s divine authority.

  • DRMR says:

    As an ex-member of WCG and UCG, I find this all extremely fascinating, particularly the Ron Weinland situation. The reason is, it looks many of the leaders of the WCG splinters have pretty much the same kind of character defect, or spiritual condition, which they picked up from Herbert Armstrong. It’s like some kind of disease. It’s the ‘Power Hungry, Money Hungry, I’ve Been Chosen To Speak For God Disease’, or whatever anyone wants to call it. What makes Ron Weinland’s situation so interesting, for me, is that he has this ‘disease’ worse than any of the others. And many of the other splinter leaders would progress to Ron Weinland’s stage of the disease, in time. Because the nature of it is more power, more money, more authority, while it gets more delusional. The progression is just way more advanced in Ron Weinland’s case.

  • DRMR says:

    “In fact, he should repent and submit himself to David Hulme’s divine authority”.

    I love it!

  • Weinland Observer says:

    That was the problem with UCG. They didn’t have the right governence strategy that God gave. Ron and everyone else was asleep then. Everyone fell asleep spiritually at the time. Ron himself admitted this. This is why he managed to except voting, etc. With the wrong form of government, the truths were also beginning to be wattered down.
    xHWA, thanks for the website link. Just curious, when the board was disfellowshipped did anyone leave with them? Were any other splinter groups created by anyone in the Board? Also, does the phone number on Ron’s website still work today? You and Mike have given me some great stuff to look at.

  • xHWA says:

    “xHWA, thanks for the website link.”
    Ya welcome.

    “Just curious, when the board was disfellowshipped did anyone leave with them?”
    Yes and no. They held a meeting early the next Sabbath to let their side of the story be known. They planned it so that everyone would have the chance to attend with Ron later that day. The people who received the “no longer members in good standing” letters were a bit confused as to whether or not they were still welcome to attend, but so far as a split went, no one conceived of the idea. We just thought the Board would go to UCG or something. As it turns out, their side of the story was so convincing, and the details Ron left out of his side were so incredible, well, the whole lot of us soon decided in the following days that we would just leave with the Board. I left when Ron accused me of fraternizing with the enemy (not in those words, but that was the gist of it) during a wedding party. He was really quite rude to me. And I’ll admit that in my frustration I was really quite rude to him right back. I added up all of the things I saw during 1999 (many more things than are presented here) and concluded that the man misrepresented himself as a minister and was not what he seemed.

    “Were any other splinter groups created by anyone in the Board?”
    No. They are all, in fact, still together today. Except for one man who left when he decided he wanted to pursue the belief that Jesus was a created being, and also got caught all up in the calendar issues.

    “Also, does the phone number on Ron’s website still work today?”
    I don’t know. The mailing address was handled by one of the Elders on the Board, so that is why Ron had to get a new P.O. box. You could try the number and see, I suppose.

  • J says:

    “That was the problem with UCG. They didn’t have the right governence strategy that God gave. Ron and everyone else was asleep then. Everyone fell asleep spiritually at the time.”

    WO, you’re just spouting what someone else told you. Don’t speak with authority about something you were not alive to experience.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    WO: Ron had no need for your corporation or your cash. However it was his right to disfelloship those who are not following God.

    If Ron had no need of the money, then he would have just left. Instead he took it, which puts the lie to your statement. You need to re-read those letters he wrote, particularly second one. His disfellowshipping of the board members was not an ecclesiastical action — it was a legal maneuver.

    If Ron had held up a bank teller to get the money, I believe WO would also be explaining how that is OK. Personally having a hard time distinguishing between the two methods.

    WO, let us know how the phone number works out.

  • xHWA says:

    “Ron and everyone else was asleep then. Everyone fell asleep spiritually at the time. Ron himself admitted this.”

    Then how is it that I recall something about him claiming to be a prophet since 1997? A sleeping prophet? A prophet in what way if he was so wrong before God?
    With his track record lately, perhaps he’s still asleep.

    If they were asleep because of government style, then the UCG was never valid at all, nor was his being set up as minister of COG, Inc, therefore as a non-leader of a non-group he had no authority to do what Mike reported about above.

    Gerald Flurry and Rod Merideth for example had the “right” government model. How were they asleep? Why not address that? He should seek those men out and let them know their correct understanding of church government was a beacon of light to the COG universe. Instead he calls down death on them. He claims “right” government style, which they had before he did, as if it were something he came up with. Seems to me that he only makes himself all the more illegitimate by admitting anything.

  • jack635 says:

    WO, you’re just spouting what someone else told you.

    That seems to be the common denominator of those who defend Weinland. They answer a question with “just go to the website, its all on the web site”.
    Or they answer with a pre programmed response.

    W.O. Just say what’s in your mind, your heart, your personality, instead of what you have beeen told. If you don’t know the answer to a question posed, just say I don’t know instead of parroting what most PKG members do. Surely you do have your own feelings, opinions, and questions.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    J, I don’t need to be alive to know when something that was wrong happened. You have your beliefs and they are your’s to have, but I for one do not and have never believed in councils can determine what is of God. God inspires them is what some could say. I have read a Orthodox history book that stated the same thing. I know that is wrong because the Bible itself states this where it talks of how he appoints elders, ministers, etc. Again, read Mystery Of the Ages and let me know if you learned anything new from the book

    Now this question is for anyone. Why do most major Cog splinters not have links to or text of Mystery Of The Ages. UCG, LCG, even RCG don’t have the book although they have rewritten copies of the very same thing Armstrong wrote. That I don’t get. You would think that groups out there trying to continue what Armstrong was doing would keep some of his books on their shelves. As far as books go, the only one who seams to be producing them on mass is RCG. Their publications seam to be copies of what Armstrong wrote to the name with additions and dedductions.

    axHWa, now I see what you mean. Those who were in the board just kept a seperate organization. Do they still believe what Ron taught to that point or did they go on another direction? As far as the site goes the only thing that seams to be on the site other than a tape request form and a feast form is an archive of News watch for 1998 to 1999. I’m planning on reading those. I do wonder why Ron didn’t place them on his new website.
    Also, do you know why Ron only has archived sermons from 2001 onward and even from 2001 not every weekly sermon? I was always slightly puzzled at this as he has recently been archiving all sermons in the last few years.

  • Whisper says:

    The proper and good form of Church Government is for one man to hold all the reigns of power and for everyone else to follow his directions because he is in contact with God? I think Catholicism did this from time to time as well and had new problems arise & cause hardship.
    Me thinks it is RON who wants the sole leadership & sole power, Ron and Ron alone (well I guess Laura likes it too).

    “Total power leads to Total corruption.”
    Let Rons history stand as a proof of this quote.
    Now he spends his time in his $380,000 home, traveling across the globe, eating good, living good all the while the little sheeples work hard and sweat to keep him in this condition… that is until Ron will need to wisk off to Europe or other such when America turns into a waeste land and his followers can live in it. They are a tool to the greater goodness of Ron and the “True Church”, they are not the object of it. Ron is the object of the church, he is it’s sole owner.

    🙁

  • J says:

    Whatever, kiddo. Your pride turns me off to your posts. You’d make a perfect member of PKG.

  • xHWA says:

    “Do they still believe what Ron taught to that point or did they go on another direction?”
    I’m fuzzy about what point specifically you are referring to. Government?

    The COG – Toledo, as a corporate entity, is headed by Mr. Gary Klar. He is aided by a church board which is elected by the members of the corporation. He has no control over the money at all, except for the ability to write small checks without board approval. (Small checks in the order of $500 or less, I think.)
    The COG – Toledo, as a spiritual entity, is ministered by Mr. Gary Klar. He takes the advice of local Deacons closely to heart and defers to them regularly. A very wise thing, IMHO.

    I have no answer for your question about his sermons. I don’t trust him, so to me it looks fishy by default, especially given his habit of editing the ones he leaves up. Mike would know far better than I about that question.

  • misfit says:

    Thanks, Mike. I knew you’d be able to put your hands on the comments from Weinland about taxes, etc. I knew I heard him say that. It’s really hard to believe that WO is so adamant in his/her belief in Weinland. You’re right in stating that WO is literal when it suits him and infers things when that suits. So, Weinland didn’t specifically say to the congregation NOT to pay taxes, so that must not be true (right, WINK, WINK). By the same rationale, he DID specifically say that we would NOT have a president take office in 2009, but we did. Yet WO says that nothing Weinland has said has failed? Pretty much everything he’s said, including no President taking office, has NOT happened as he predicted. I’m at a loss. It’s like trying to reason with my toddler.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    xHWA, Ron actually states those two ministers you mentioned as being two of the five who will die and specifically states in the book that they of all others should know where we are in time and what has happened. Because of their government structure and keeping of trunk of the tree for the most part and being ignorant in small matters: IE LCG rejecting Armstrong as endtime Elijah, RCG and PCG being too far to the right. The final church era lasted until Nov. 14, 2008 so the condition continued existing. Only God knows when people were fully awake. I will read the news watch archives on the site as that’s all they seam to have in addition to some request forms. Yes, I may just give Ron a call one of these days. Although it might be someone else as well, and in that case hopefully it’s someone who is with PKG and if not hopefully the person wouldn’t be too irritated and have caller ID.

    Jack, I do have a personality, feelings, opinions, and questions. My opinion would have been the same even before I heard of Ron. I was never really for boards and councils. Look at the original blog to see more of my personality.

    J, Are you officially ignoring me? Just curious so I don’t talk to you if you are. I don’t mean to want to ignore you by saying that.

  • xHWA says:

    WO, just an observation,

    I think that you sometimes confuse the PKG church with the PKG corporation. The two are not the same. One is bound by the laws of the Bible (ummmm… anyways), the other by the tax laws of the United States. The corporation only exists for tax purposes. One cannot write off their tithes as a charitable donation unless they were given to a church with a proper corporate organization that has tax exempt status.

    You may view that Ron has spiritual authority to do whatever he did, and if he wants to be sole leader of his own church then he can make up his own rules or whatever, but the legal facts of the matter are that he did not have that authority within the corporate organization. When boards and ministers fight in corporations, like happened in PKG and UCG and Global and etc, it is always about money because that is the only thing the corporation exists for. The right thing to do was either to give it up and move on, or dissolve the corporate entity and start over (thus risking his power), or do what the Board did and write new by-laws. He still disfellowshipped them! Then he removed the voting members who opposed him before a vote could be taken to adopt the new rules the Board helped write. That’s not within the church organization, but in the corporate organization.

    I just caution you to keep the two separate and distinct in your mind. Perhaps that will also help you to see what’s going on here.

  • J says:

    WO, no not ignoring. I just find it very hard to read your posts. If you ask me something, then I will reply.

  • xHWA says:

    “I have seen your [Weinland’s] fruit for the past few years and believe that you have been following Jesus Christ.”

    If Ron was asleep, then this question was bogus.
    Not that the other ones aren’t as well, but……

  • xHWA says:

    “In letter, Ron indicated that there was an attempt by “some” to take control of the corporation. Yes, there was an attempt. But it was not an attempt by “some”, it was an attempt by “one”, Ronald Weinland”

    Absolutely agreed!

    Evidenced first by the report that Terry Wrozack knew “change was coming” before Ron discussed anything with the Board about the new governmental style he wanted. And second by the report that Board member John Ross and mole turned Senior Elder Terry Wrozack together wrote the new by-laws that were to be voted on BEFORE anyone was disfellowshipped.

    The Board wrote the new by-laws and were disfellowshipped anyway, and the perceived threats in the congregation were eliminated as well. They weren’t happy about it, but they were cooperating. Ron said all he wanted was control of the scattered tithes. When asked if he thought of a new government style, he said he hadn’t thought about it. Next thing you know he’s the sole leader of the church. What did the Board get for it? The boot! …and a parting gift for playing.

    The letters handed to the “no longer in good standing” were pre-made and brought to services. They amounted to “Dear Sir or Madam” letters. That tells me Ron had identified in advance who he thought was a threat. I got a call the next day telling me that I received a letter by mistake. FAT CHANCE! It was a 3 question survey. What mistake could you possibly make? I believe he didn’t read the surveys at all until later.

  • DRMR says:

    Weinland Observer says:
    July 14, 2009 at 13:19
    “xHWA, Ron actually states those two ministers you mentioned as being two of the five who will die and specifically states in the book that they of all others should know where we are in time and what has happened.”

    WO, just curious, how long would these two ministers have to stay alive before you would begin to doubt Ron Weinland’s power to pronounce a death curse that would actually come to pass?

  • DRMR says:

    Let me correct that, WO.

    How long would any of the five have to stay alive before you would doubt the power of Ron Weinland’s death curse?

  • J says:

    Personally, for this “prophecy” to work, I would have to see them die either at the same time or in quick succession.

    You can’t wait too long either. I find nothing abnormal or prophetic about old men dying of old age at their own time.

    I could make a prophecy: “David Pack, Gerald Flurry and Roderick Meredith will all be DEAD by 2030.” I doubt anyone could seriously deny that. “Old men will DIE…..sometime” is ground-breaking in its foresightedness.

  • DRMR says:

    I’ve got to agree with you, J , I think you’re totally right.

    And WO, I’m not trying to start a debate with you, or anything like that.

    Since you have said that you haven’t seen any prophetic failures coming from Ron, I’m just trying to get an idea of what you WOULD consider to be a failure. Let’s say, in the instance of the death curse on the five ministers.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    DRMR, everything has to happen in less than 3 years. Examples of failure would include:
    1. Fifth trumpet not sounding by the last six months. Then I’de know something was up.
    2. Ron saying something would happen and that not happening.
    3. Ron not getting killed when he’s suppposed to.
    4. Russia and China not coming together to destroy mankind by last few months, 3 at that as this was stated in the book. It was stated that that there would be fighting between Europe and Russia annd China for a few months before last battle.
    While I don’t believe this would happen , the above are a few things that would make Ron to be proven false.

    **************************************************
    [Please post any replies to this comment on the general discussion post. Thanks. Mike]
    *****************************************************

  • DRMR says:

    WO, O.K. Fair enough.

    But my question was in regard to the five ministers that Ron pronounced the death curse on.

    How long would they have to remain alive before you would doubt Ron’s power to pronounce the death curse?

    [Please post any replies to this comment on the general discussion post. Thanks. Mike]

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    Wow – you have all been busy whilst I’ve been sleeping down here in Aus 🙂

    No offence taken as an XPKG member myself, it is completely TRUE that one of the main reasons I stayed with PKG for as long as I did was FEAR that I wouldn’t make it to the ‘promised land’ (mellenial reign). I was literally, spiritually, PARALISED.

    I never did believe for one moment that Ron would ever go back on his word (as it was so streniously made!) and not declare himself a false prophet. Yet, when he did break his word, I was SO SCARED. What if he IS right (again, the 50th truth made perfect sense).

    That’s why I stayed a little ways into Timeline 2.

    I was reading a post yesterday, (should’ve written it down) where it was stated in the Bible that some would ‘blaspheme the truth’ – well to me, that is what Ron has done. I often think, and still do think, what if EVERYTHING Ron says IS TRUE, EXCEPT that he is a prophet and God’s final witness. What better way for Satan to deceive people, and turn even more people off ‘the truth’. Just a thought……I am sure that Satan would know the truth. Just a thought.

    I’ll just clarify a little further on this point – I believed Ron about the ‘truths’ before, BLINDLY – I know that now. I believed just because, well, I just DID. So now, I still believe all those ‘Truths’ but now I will need to confirm each one, and study into more from the BIBLE and not just ‘believe’ it because I THOUGHT ‘God put it in my mind’. To be honest though, I just do not have the energy to study into anything right now. I just want to get my head right again first.

    WO – I had noticed that Ron had deleted sermons also. Nathan used to download the sermons really early Sunday morning our time, live. Then I would download them later from the website. Often, they were different….mmmmmm. Think of that what you will.

    XHWA – I am somewhat aware of how church organisations work (I was married to a pentecostal pastors son) and certainly know how the legal aspects have to been in play, as you state, because of Tithes (not a profitable organisation, tithers get a tax deduction etc).

    Mike and yourself have explained this very well, and I do think it is very easy as XHWA has said, for people like WO to get the two confused.

    After all, what happened to ‘obey the laws of the land’. Ron didn’t. He twisted it to get his own way.

    I must say, I never believed for one minute that Ron wasn’t sincere, and fully believed who he said he was. Now, well – it’s pretty damn obvious isn’t it.

    [Most of this comment is on topic. But if commenting on any aspects which are off-topic, please post any replies to this comment on the general discussion post. Thanks. Mike]

  • J says:

    WO, from a time standpoint, which of the examples’ time limits would come first? In your mind, what is the EARLIEST prophecy that you hold true that will be tested?

    [Please post any replies to this comment on the general discussion post. Thanks. Mike]

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Hello everybody. Thanks for following my Weinland blogging to its new home.

    The discussion has been lively but tends to meander off topic. xHWA has indicated that he’d like the comments on this post to stay on topic, and so would I.

    I’m not wanting to spank anybody — heck, I’ve been guilty myself. So my solution is to provide another outlet for the general type discussions, such as general failed prophecies, 5 ministers who are still alive, etc.

    Please move off-topic discussions to the new post.

    Let’s try to keep the discussions on this post to the topic of the events of early 2000 and Ronald Weinland’s governance methods.

  • DRMR says:

    WO,

    2. Ron saying something would happen and that not happening.

    That’s exactly what I’m trying to get at. How long would these ministers have to stay alive, before you would say “This ain’t happening” ?

    [Please post any replies to this comment on the general discussion post. Thanks. Mike]
    [Letting this one slide because it coincided with my last comment.]

  • DRMR says:

    Sorry Mike,

    As you can see, my last comment came in about a second after yours.

    [No problem DRMR, I noticed the timestamp and gave some latitude. Appreciate your moving the next comment to the General Discussion post. Mike]

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Not a comment by Weinland Observer.

    This comment was moved to the General Discussion Post. I gave a little latitude to the last two comments since they were probably in progress when I set this up. Thanks to those commenters for continuing the discussion over there.

    Mike

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “Why do most major Cog splinters not have links to or text of Mystery Of The Ages.”

    Gerald Flurry sued WCG for the copyright in the 1990s (think it was between ’93 and ’96), and won. Therefore, the only splinter with a copyright to MoA is Gerald Flurry’s Philadelphia Church of God. See Ambassador Report #65, under the heading, “Flurry Wins Big in Court”.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    xHWA, I believe I am understanding what you said concerning church and religious organizations. From what you stated churches and other groups are exempt from taxes but only if they are organized in a certain way. I know too that churches and other groups can not endorse politicians in order to be exempt from taxes. So because cog-pkg has no board now but still has a corporation which Ron himself manages, are tithes not exempt from taxes? Also, what happened to the site from 2000 onward? When did news watch stop being published? Although you’re not in cog-pkg, you seam to know quite a bit about it. I’m not expecting to prove you wrong or for the opposite to happen. I do appreciate the info you have been able to find for me. I don’t understand why Ron didn’t post news watch magazines on his website or why he doesn’t have any sermons on his old website. One thing is for sure and that is that Ron was truly concerned about the Church during the sermons. I am still on the first sermon and I could sense in Ron’s voice that he was troubled. He stated at some point in the sermon that two weeks later, it could all be over. This must have been hard for all at the time. I’m just glad all went well and the board didn’t manage to fire Ron although that would have meant nothing in the end concerning where God was working. It would have hurt a lot of people spiritually though.

    Kirrily, If you believe all truths other than the truth that Ron and Laura are the two witnesses, do you realize that because there is only 1 church according to the bible that one church would have to be teaching this stuff. Just wondering, do you still believe there is only one true church God is working through.
    Also, I am surprised that you would side with a board versus God’s form of Government considering it was one of the truths that you still believe as it doesn’t involve Ron’s prophethood. Some more Food For Thought. I haven’t served too much for a while. Maybe I can’t think of any more because I’m full. Lol.

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    WO – I do still believe in ‘the top down’ government. But one must also obey the laws of the land. Ron clearly didn’t. I never said I would side with the board. Ron’s behaviour in the ‘legal’ regard, well, it just wasn’t right. I honestly do not know anymore if God is working through one organisation – I actually highly doubt it.

    Like I said, I am no mood to be studying into anything at the moment – I trust you can understand.

  • Mark says:

    “WO – I do still believe in ‘the top down’ government.”

    I am so, so sorry you still believe that. Hopefully with your experience you will eventually change that viewpoint. Top down only works with PERFECT leaders. Do you know any humans who are perfect? No, because humans are really fallen and imperfect, you need additional imperfect counsel to hold a leader accountable. Without that, you will be setting yourself up for more dictator religious zealots like Ron Weinland. Come on!

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    If you don’t see your comment here, another gentle reminder:

    Please move off-topic discussions to the new post.

    Let’s try to keep the discussions on this post to the topic of the events of early 2000 and Ronald Weinland’s governance methods.

    I have moved some comment to the proper place, but don’t count on that.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    The only concern that Ron felt was that he might not be able to get his mitts on several hundred thousand dollars. He expected it would be all over two weeks later at the general membership meeting, one way or another. But he had the following week to do more plotting and scheming.

    If it was just about the church, he could have announced his resignation and how to get ahold of him at his new church, or just mailed a bunch of letters. Rod Meredith pulled that off successfully. Ron would have kept the out-of-towners, and maybe a few more of the locals. But this way he got the money which would have taken longer to recover from any extra followers he would have kept. This move was to his financial advantage.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Personally I think Global Church of God was a mess in every way. They fired their leader and then formed this trilateral alliance with these two other COGS. They might just as well be called Church Of God Tri-laterel. There is only one reason why I know so much about COG and it is because I am not too interested or was never interested in Church Organization history other than COG now. If I wanted to find out about a religion I would get a hold of it’s book.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I am glad Ron got the $345000K. If anyone knows what the board wanted to do with it let me know. The money was used for good purpose and out of God’s love. Does anyone notice the voice Ron uses throughout the sermon?

    Mark, I believe the 50th truth. It is perfect in every way. That is all I will say. All will happen taking in to account the 50th truth.

    Observer, Did yo/are you planning on listening to the sermons Mike uploaded here? It is great history and convinces me even more so how Ron may have had less experience, maybe little hope in keeping everyone or most together, but continued to follow God. The website that Xhwa posted is also a good website .If nothing else at least it has some News Watch Publications. I read the first one. It’s amazing to see how the comission preparing for the kingdom of God has evolved, first to those who were seeking the truth from scattering, then publications going out to the scattered spiritual Israel, then to physical Israel and the world.

  • Whisper says:

    Ron thinks that leadership of his church should be by one person and one person alone.
    Hitler thought that leadership of his country would be by one person and one person alone.
    Ron removed all those members with corporation power within the Church he wanted.
    Hilter removed all those citizens with political power within Germany.
    Ron is now a corporation of 1 member, himself, with total rulership of his corporation.
    Hitler was a country of 1 ruler, himself, with total rulership of his country.
    Ron now states his words are the one truth and he may change them at will.
    Hitler stated his words where the Law and he changed them at will.

    Is any of this getting through? Is the similarity of government style more than coincidence?

  • Weinland Observer says:

    The Weimer Republic was corrupt.
    The board was corrupt.
    Hitler overthrew the Weimer republic.
    Through Ron, God took care of the board.
    Similarities end here.
    Whisper, I take it you enjoy history. I do to. I grew up with a liking for it.

  • xHWA says:

    WO “Does anyone notice the voice Ron uses throughout the sermon?”

    Not only did I notice the voice he uses, I watched his face as he spoke it. He was convincing. Except for there was something about him that made me incredibly suspicious. I attended his church for a few years and watched him change from a person who appeared to truly care about the church into a man who spoke the words that he cared but it was obvious that he did not. (You’ll have to trust me on this that I’m privy to private information far and beyond just what’s here and it goes a long way to helping me form my opinion.) We’d seen his growing obsession with Herbert Armstrong. We weren’t the only ones who’d noticed. Other ministers in other areas were well aware of Ron’s attitude. I’d met my share of shady characters, and by that point Ron fit the profile. My wife and I passed notes back and forth about how something seemed to be up. Like crocodile tears or a politician’s smile.
    Just to make it clear, I do tend to side with the Board. I think their decision was correct. They questioned him, he wouldn’t explain himself, they made it clear they couldn’t support him because of that. It was the right thing to do. The market was already flooded with publications. No one but Ron and a couple of his closest cheerleaders wanted the media machine of UCG recreated. We were beginning to understand that Christ is a single Spiritual Body of believers, not a single corporation. We were beginning to see that we were all divided, but all on the same team. So long as UCG had a media machine, that was serving the purpose well enough. No need to duplicate efforts. Ron apparently did not see that because he couldn’t see past his own ego. All saw the call as being one to get into the trenches and actually help those in need, in a way WCG should have been doing but failed to do. The Board saw the goal as calling people to Christ, and Ron saw the goal as calling people to his ministry. According to the intentions of the by-laws, the Board’s function was to advise him and question his decisions so that no one man could control the show. It was designed that way on purpose. Ron may say he was asleep, but “asleep” don’t cut it. One man rule was taught since the 1940’s and it was no secret. They purposefully and with forethought and intent went against that (in the corporation!) for a reason. One man rule led to Joe Tkatch Sr. and other shady characters like Rod Merideth and the Global fiasco. There was no sleep. It was done to protect everyone because “in the multitude of counsellors there is safety”. But I will readily admit the Board had their own problems. They weren’t telling anyone anything (until a week too late). They had a stand-offish air about them as well, carried over from the WCG days, that these events helped cure them of. It was very humbling.

    WO “One thing is for sure and that is that Ron was truly concerned about the Church during the sermons.”

    I disagree. It was obvious that something was up. It’s the odd glint in the eye, the pieces and details that don’t add up, the sense that it was all spin, add the evidence of the following week’s activities, the unsorrowful unapologetic attitude, the realization that he had hired a lawyer to find ways around the by-laws (it’s common knowledge now, but not then), and etc., etc., etc. It piled up real quick.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    xHWA, I now understand the position of the board. As Ron stated in the sermon, “I don’t agree with it.” The board thought publications from UCG would call people. The board didn’t understand that God worked through one church. I can’t believe that after the truths given to Ron, the board could sstill have believed that UCG publications would help others. I now see the difference in oppinion. Ron believed God was using him in the final Era to help scattered brethren. The Board believed God was using many organizations to call others and that they formed the church. Thanks for clearing it up as I now understande where the board was coming from. If there is something not personal that indicates Ron caring less for the Church, state it here. This does not include the fact that Ron was willing to disfelloship those with views and motives that you described. Mr. Armstrong had to do some housecleaning in the 70’s to take out some liberals and he was strong about it. Ron did the same thing. Again, state one example of how Ron cared less about people. If it is only to convince me of Ron’s involidity and you would share something with me alone which I don’t expect you to do, then contact Mike. A better way would be sharing things with Mike so that he could post what was okay to post. I just think that if you’re going to say there is evidence that Ron began to care less, there is some that could be given.
    P.S. How was the expression on Ron’s face during the sermon?

  • xHWA says:

    For the record about my comment about what I know that isn’t posted on this blog (yet) —

    There are things you had to be there for. There are things that are private and I will not tell publicly. There are things that I’ve already spoken about on Escaping Armstrong. I suggest people read those posts. And there are things that I have sent to Mike and he will either post them when he’s ready, or not post them at all as he sees fit. Perhaps if he does not I may post them on ABD, but I’m trying to get OUT of the blogging about Ron Weinland business so don’t hold your breath. My intent isn’t to bury Ron, or even smear him, but just give out important info. I intend only to help the people he’s hurt. And to go on helping them. To that end I’ve already given out plenty enough info that anyone should be able to piece it together and come to a realization. My flurry of activity recently is simply to tie up some loose ends. I intend to leave it up to Mike who excels me at this by far!

  • xHWA says:

    “How was the expression on Ron’s face during the sermon?”

    Like I said, convincing. He was a man in agony. He’s a great actor and has charisma.

    And crocodile tears, the tongue of a snake, and a politician’s smile. A whitewashed tomb. He’s as empty as a meeting hall after the Last Great Day.
    Have you ever watched the movie Beowulf (Robert Zemeckis; 2007)? There are parts of that movie that are so real looking you would swear they are live action. But in those parts there is something not quite right about it. There is something that makes you know it isn’t real; a lie in the truth. That is how he looked.
    A man in agony, with a gleam in his eye and a smirk on the corner of his mouth.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    xHWAA, I don’t see how you ever believed Ron. As far as acting, there were better things he could have acted with if that was his purpose. He could have done a lot of pretending that everything was okay. Do you ever feel Ron taught what you believed, that God’s church worked in various organizations?

  • xHWA says:

    “Do you ever feel Ron taught what you believed, that God’s church worked in various organizations?”

    Yes. It’s not so black and white as I always did or else I never did. Ron takes that tact in his letters to people who question him. Either he is their minister and they fall in line, or he never was and they should leave. I disagree. Remember how Christ died for His enemies. If Christ acted with that attitude like Ron does, we’d all be dead.
    He was a different man before 1999. Before the money. I met Al Buchanan of Belleville COG through Ron’s reaching out to other organizations. Ron reached out to other ministers and groups regularly. You keep reading those News Watch newsletters and you’ll see that he understood the Body of Christ was not limited to a corporation. That changed when the money came in. Or else I was more deceived by Ron than I realize.

    Please don’t misunderstand me. I have nothing against him personally. I forgive him completely for anything he may have done to me, real or perceived, direct or indirect. I may be hard on Ron at times, but only within certain boundaries. He has in his grip people that I care a lot about. The fact of things as I see them is that he is a Christ peddler and I will oppose him until he lets his captives go free.

    BUT if he were to repent and admit that he is a false prophet, step down from his leadership role, stop accepting tithes, and sit in the congregation as a regular member … I would not only leave him perfectly alone, but extend my hand to him in peace. I don’t ask that he return the money. I don’t ask that he pay penance. All he has to do is admit that he was wrong and change because of it.
    I hold out that hope, so I do not condemn him. I may appear harsh at times but I do not think for a second that he is damned or hopeless. I have hope for him that he will repent, and if he does he will certainly be accepted.

  • Whisper says:

    “The Weimer Republic was corrupt.
    The board was corrupt.”

    The Weimar Republic was corrupt in a Nation wracked by civil un-rest and realing from defeat… that’s historic record.
    Don’t know if the Board was corrupt, the only person even hinting at this is Ron, the Hitler to the Weimar Republic?
    Why believe Ron when he is over-thrower of lawfully created boards?

    “Hitler overthrew the Weimer republic.
    Through Ron, God took care of the board.”

    Through God Hitler overthrew the Weimer Republic then & Ron his own Church.
    Remember Ron is the “bad guy” in all this, the wolf, the crafty one. He overthrew a legally correct church for his own ends.
    Ron took care of the board all right, destroyed it to get the $$ and power he craved.

    That’s human nature, some overcome it and rise, others do not and sink. Ron sunk.

    “Similarities end here.”

    Uh… well ya I mean Ol Hit had high goals and grand schemes, Ron wants to rule a small flock.
    Just telling yourself your a “Witness” does not make you great or a “hinge” of history, history does that.
    Where’s the proof enough to fill those shoes? To those of us whom have seem some slick customers all decked in sheeps clothing come through the door over the years we submit that each new professor of “Prophecy”, and now “Witnesshood” proove that they are of God! Ron did try such and stated “the proof that I am a prophet and a witness is in the timing” and his timing went all to heck. Now he’s working on a 51st truth and hinting that the first trumpet was phophetic of the prophecy yet to come where 1/3 of grass and tree’s will die in America and until then it’s all spiritual relating to the currency of America?

    Whew… step the side and dance dance dance, don’t even look back over your shoulder at your mistakes, just dance dance dance…

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Weinland Observer said:
    The Weimer Republic was corrupt.
    The board was corrupt.
    Hitler overthrew the Weimer republic.
    Through Ron, God took care of the board.

    WO, you have crossed a line here. By all accounts, the board members that Ron bulldozed out of the church were honorable men. You have made an ad hominem attack against them.

    You will either
    (1) retract that statement, or
    (2) back it up with facts. And just for your information, I will not tolerate an answer along the lines of “they were corrupt because they wouldn’t do what Ron wants”. I’ve tolerated your lame explanations for your distorted world view, but I will not tolerate it for this. Provide a dictionary definition for corruption and exactly how they meet it.

    Your next comment here needs to address this issue. I’ve allowed you to duck questions. You’re not ducking this issue.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Okay sorry I may have gone too far by trying to use the Hitler example. Sorry about that one Mike.
    I could rephrase it. I will do that.
    The German people wanted a leader who would lead themto glory.
    Those in COG inc wanted the man who God was working for to guide them to God’s glory by them continuing in the truth.
    Does that fix it Mike?
    That took a bit of work. It was fun though.
    Hitler was a better choice over the Weimar Republic physically as Ron was a better choice spiritually.

    Note that I’m not a Nazi, just keen on continuing to use Hitler as an example to make this point.
    That was fun!

  • Weinland Observer says:

    I’ll just unsay that part of the comment if you wish Mike. Okay I admit the board wasn’t corrupt as it was doing what it was set up for. I guess this might just apply to the Weimar Republic. They both have one thing in common. They were doing what they were set up to do and were replaced.

  • Weinland Observer? says:

    Maybe resorting to politics when trying to discuss Ron doesn’t work out very well.

  • misfit says:

    WO – You are a puzzle for sure. At times your posts truly sound as if you are older than you claim. Those posts sound knowledgeable, are articulate and are spelled correctly for the most part. Sometimes you seem to even have experiences with and knowledge of the COG-PKG not fitting someone of the age you’ve claimed. Other times, you sound like a completely smitten teen age girl. For example, “Does anyone notice the voice Ron uses throughout the sermon?” and “How was the expression on Ron’s face during the sermon?” Should Ron be in the same room, I can envision you batting your eyelashes and hanging on his every word. (gag)

    With regard to whether the board was corrupt or not, I can understand their position – Ron could or would not explain himself, so they could not support his decision. As said before, man by nature is flawed. Not all men are dishonest, but in order to avoid even the slightest appearance of impropriety, it’s best to have checks and balances in place. To me, a rational person understands this – someone who is not operating completely above board would protest to this. Maybe I’m oversimplifying, but to me it’s black and white.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Misfit, I’m not a girl. It feels awkward being called one but I can understand that it would be impossible for you to know this. Harry Potter should have given you more of a clue but maybe it didn’t. As for the voice, i mentioned it because I was reflecting on how Ron felt while giving the sermon based on his voice.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Weinland Observer: It wasn’t the politics, it was the accusation of corruption against those board members who were following their principles. Disagree with them if you like, but don’t impugn them like this.

    So let’s let the conversation return to Weinland’s governance style. On topic please, we have another post for general discussions including the nature of Weinland Observer. 😉

  • todd says:

    did w/o say “the man God was working for”? excuse me!?

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    todd, thanks for getting the discussion back on topic 😀

    And pointing out the reality of Weinland’s government. Weinland’s God is one of his own creation, manufactured in his own image. Weinland’s Jesus is another. Characters on his stage of deception.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Some interesting points about the sermon.
    1. Ron stated that if enough disagreed with the new bylaws, the money would stay but he would go follow God with those who wished to continue following God.
    2. Ron repented from creating the structure of government that existed in the first place. He said that he was glad the issue with the money came up as God had shown him clearly that the form of government that existed was not God’s way of government.
    3. Ron stated that the tithes sent by the brethren of God’s church are to be managed by the minister, not the Board.
    I have listened to the 3 hour sermon. xHWA, with the voice I could sence Ron’s confidence increase in the second half of the sermon. He didn’t sound as sad in the second half. He had more of a “what needs to get done will get done whether it gets done with this money or not” kind of attitude. Just curious, do you think that most would have left with Ron if the board fired Ron? I know what I would have done, felt like the board was taking my money.

  • J says:

    That comment is hilarious, isn’t it? I’m sure he meant “worked THROUGH”, but it’s still a silly thing to say.

    WO…..your comments are horrible. So incredibly naive. “Hitler was a better choice over the Weimar Republic” Why yes, ask any Jew.

    /facepalm

    Godwin’s Law strikes again!

  • Weinland Observer says:

    J, this isn’t a politics blog, but from a physical standpoint the pre-1939 Hitler was better for the German people than the Weimar Republic. What I had said earlier came across not so well as I was probably making a comparison I shouldn’t have made. That is all I will say on the subject as this is not a political blog. I wouldn’t have even stated this had I not been asked about it and if I didn’t feel not responding would portray me in a negative way. Mike, feel free to delete this comment if you wish but please don’t do anything more if that is what you do end up doing, and understand why I felt I had a moral obligation to respond to J’s comment.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Taking this thread back on topic.

    WO asked: Just curious, do you think that most would have left with Ron if the board fired Ron? I know what I would have done, felt like the board was taking my money.

    My opinion, and maybe xHWA will weigh in:
    If on Feb 5 Ron had announced that he was resigning, and sent a letter to everyone explaining why, I think that he would have taken most of the membership with him. The 2/3 of the members who were from out-of-town would have gone with him because Ron was their interface. And probably a few of the locals would have as well, Terry Wrozek for sure.

    And I suspect that those left in the Church of God Inc would have made an equitable division of the money. No lawyers would have made any money.

    OTOH, if the board and the membership had stood its ground after Ron’s Feb 5 use of ecclesiastical actions as legal maneuvers and had fired Ron, then I think he would still have taken the out-of-town members with him. I doubt that Ron would have prevailed in court, and after all the legal wrangling there wouldn’t have been any money to divide.

  • xHWA says:

    “do you think that most would have left with Ron if the board fired Ron?”
    Your question is purely hypothetical, so I can’t really answer that with any accuracy. So, I’d rather not even attempt it.

    Most people left after the Board explained their side. After the Board explained their side, it was clear that “Nothing Will Remain Hidden” was the largest case of misrepresentation since “The Never Ending Story”. Much remained hidden… like the fact that he’d retained a lawyer. How’d he pay for that? Not even the Board knew. To this day I don’t understand why he chose that title.

    Don’t forget that Ron planned much of this in advance (unity’s sake?), he knew who he thought would leave, Terry Wrozack told the Board that changes were coming, all the Board wanted was a clear explanation which he refused to give, and what Ron did was unethical at best, illegal at worst.

  • Weinland Observer? says:

    Actually, Ron worked within the legal framework. He had the power to disfelloship the board and he did just that. If it was illegal, it wouldn’t have worked.

  • xHWA says:

    Don’t think that just because it worked that what he did was legal. The Board chose not to press the matter. No court was involved to decide.
    Also, that doesn’t address that it was clearly unethical. What Ron wanted was the money, and his lawyers devised a way to get it. He disfellowshipped the Board (for the unforgivable sin of doing their jobs), and invented the “members not in good standing” status to remove the vote of church members who were not involved whatsoever in any way.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    WO, you need to reread the Feb 7 letter again. Several times. The bylaws did not give him the power to remove the board by disfellowshipping them. If the board had stood up to him instead of folding their tent and leaving, it would have gone to court. When the judge heard how the corporation hired Ron, I doubt that the legal argument constructed by his multi-partnered law firm would have prevailed.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    Weinland Observer said:
    1. Ron stated that if enough disagreed with the new bylaws, the money would stay but he would go follow God with those who wished to continue following God.
    2. Ron repented from creating the structure of government that existed in the first place. He said that he was glad the issue with the money came up as God had shown him clearly that the form of government that existed was not God’s way of government.
    3. Ron stated that the tithes sent by the brethren of God’s church are to be managed by the minister, not the Board.

    Point #2: Ron didn’t repent — he regretted. There’s a big difference.
    Point #3: Ron said that, the bylaws said something else.

    Let’s keep # 1 in mind and then you explain it again after you’ve listened to the Feb 5 sermon.

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Mike, since repent means think differently it is clear Ron changed his perception on government. As for the bylaws, they did say something else. This is where Ron’s repentence comes in. I will certainly listen to the Feb 5 sermon. I wonder why Ron doesn’t have some of the stuff like these sermons on the website. I’m just as puzzled as to why he didn’t keep newswatch archives on the site.

  • J says:

    You seem to have a lot of insight into how Weinland actually THINKS. You seem to know how this so-called “repentance” (with an A, not an E) changed his thought processes. You seem to know him TOO well.

    Veeeeery interesting. 😉

  • Kirrily XPKG says:

    In term of Ron’s governance, my recollection of his meaning of ‘repenting’ was turning away from sin. I don’t recall the ‘thinking differently’ – but I am not sure.

    I remember talking with Wayne about sinning, and how I constantly sinned in the same way – ie. bad thoughts towards others, my terrible ANGER problem etc etc – but what Ron did was clearly pre-meditated.

    Would be the difference between say, shooting someone in the heat of the moment as you happened to have a gun in your hand at the time (then going to jail and repenting to God for losing your temper then TURNING AWAY from that behaviour and endeavour never to repeat it again.

    OR

    Planning weeks in advance the murder of a person. Purchasing the gun, stalking the person to see their movments, then shooting them etc etc – then repenting for it afterwards – there is a HUGE difference – I think that is obvious.

  • Whisper says:

    Now lets give Ron his due, he with due dillagence thought out his take over strategy and implamented it. Of course Ron wanted the $$, but that was a short time goal, he also wanted full control of the church as a long time goal, the one he’s living today. The money in the account was used up in short order but control of the church went on and on… well control of the corporation that, lets face it, is the church. There is only the corporation when one see’s the forest through the trees. PKG is a church of “ONE” with a small number of avid watchers. It’s also “Observers” church as well? Nope, it’s Ron’s Church and it would seem that the followers of Ron are watchers of the Church activities and immitate it as best they can… and support it of course with $$.
    How much is Ron paid per year?
    What are the church funds used to pay for exactly?
    Does anyone know the $$ situation of the church beyond Ron and whom he privately allows to expedite his funds.
    When a dollar comes into PKG it comes to Ron, as Ron is the only member of the corporation. It’s Ron’s dollar to use as he see’s fit.

    Church? What church?
    I know the salary of my minister, know how much goes to to which ministry with in the church, etc…
    It’s all known as “I” am a member of the Church. Whom is a member of PKG?

    ?????

  • Weinland Observer says:

    Whisper, Ron has announced several times how much he spends on advertising. As far as government I hold he did the right thing although you’ll drop that he did the right thing.

  • xHWA says:

    “My opinion, and maybe xHWA will weigh in:
    If on Feb 5 Ron had announced that he was resigning , and sent a letter to everyone explaining why, I think that he would have taken most of the membership with him. The 2/3 of the members who were from out-of-town would have gone with him because Ron was their interface. And probably a few of the locals would have as well, Terry Wrozek for sure.”

    I didn’t want to get into this, but I’ve been thinking about it all night. I can’t see anything that would make me disagree with Mike’s assessment.

    Obviously the Board and their families would have left. Then there were some older, wiser people who had seen this all before and who weren’t fooled by Ron. They would have stayed with the Board because they’d been down that road and knew where it leads. Just the same, there are people who would do anything Ron says, no matter how weird or wild, regardless. Then there was a middle group who didn’t really know what the heck was going on. I fit in there. I knew something was terribly wrong, and I was so embarrassed that my wife thought we were a church of crazy people, but I had no idea as to what exactly was going on. I didn’t get any real info until after the split.

    I know that when Ron passed out the surveys I agreed with his three questions on a technicality. I still got a letter putting me in “member not in good standing” status anyhow (thus proving to me that the letters were made up in advance). Ron called me the next day telling me he misread my survey and reinstated me to normal status. At that point I fully intended to stay with Ron. Even after the Board had a meeting the next Sabbath to tell us their side of the story, I still intended on staying with Ron. Taking that into consideration, I think Mike is right. Most of the people would have stayed with Ron.

    Shortly afterwards there was a wedding where both sides attended. Ron was acting like (the only thing I can liken it to is “a jerk”). He was rude to me that night. And his later comments (and to my shame I was rude back) led me to believe it was because I sat with the people he disfellowshipped. After much deep introspection I finally put it all together and accepted that Ron was not representing himself truthfully, he wasn’t a man I could trust, this was precisely why the original by-laws were written as they were, and I had better go. Rather than go to the UCG I chose the path of least resistance and went with the other group. In the end, I never voted on the new by-laws one way or the other (I suppose you could say I voted with the majority, then).
    I say this to stress that there are times when it takes a sizable amount of information to convince a person to leave the comfort of status-quo. In this hypothetical alternate-universe where things played out differently (and Ron wore a Van Dyke goatee to indicate that he was dubious), I think that comfort would have convinced more people to stay with Ron than it did.

    About the out-of-town people, this is what has kept me thinking about this all night. It never dawned on me that Ron really was their source of info. Especially for Cincinnati. None of them teamed up with the COG – Toledo that I am aware of. There were people in Detroit that left, but as I understand it that was mostly because there was a second source of info with Detroit in the form of congregation members who had close relationships between Toledo and Detroit (relationships that still last today, and they still sometimes visit) [and I will miss them dearly]. This clearly irritated Ron. It is my opinion that only the people locally, who had the opportunity to meet that morning and listen to the Board tell their side of the story, could have the info they needed to make a truly informed decision. This played out in an article in the February 2000 edition of The Journal, but even that didn’t do it justice.

    I have to agree with Mike – either way the chips fell most of the out-of-town people would have gone with Ron, and in the alternate timeline more local people would have stayed with Ron.

  • xHWA says:

    Whisper – “There is only the corporation when one see’s the forest through the trees.”
    In 99.9% of the cases, you’ll get no argument from me on that. And certainly not in this case.

    Whisper – “How much is Ron paid per year?”
    I don’t know about today, but I remember when we voted to hire him in as the Minister of the Church of God, Inc., he was to be paid an annual salary of $50K.
    If he makes more than that now, perhaps we can get an insight into why he wanted so much control.

  • misfit says:

    Sorry Mike for veering off topic a tad. I did refer to WO’s comment that the board was corrupt. 🙁

  • Debbie says:

    I personally believe that Ronald and Laura are in this gig for the $$$, power & lifestyle. I’m alerted, again, to be reminded how these self-proclaimed ‘witnesses’ have set aside, in reserve, a Swiss Bank Account for themselves – and at the same time telling the members of their church – (the church that Ronald incorporated) – that they, the followers, must rely upon God to provide for them. I ask “If these were God’s witnesses, would God not provide for them??”

    I also ask “What about this ‘wine cellar’ in their $381,000 home”, which Ronald often referred to in his sermons. I question why ‘God’s two witnesses’ would put together a collection of fine wines from around the word on the brink of ‘the final time, times & half- times’.

    Just my 2 cents 🙂

  • Whisper says:

    “Whisper – “How much is Ron paid per year?”
    Xwha – “I don’t know about today, but I remember when we voted to hire him in as the Minister of the Church of God, Inc., he was to be paid an annual salary of $50K.
    If he makes more than that now, perhaps we can get an insight into why he wanted so much control.”

    The point being that now Ron makes whatever Ron decides to make from the Tithes of the faithful. No one appoints Ron to anything, no one gives Ron a salary, no body decides the biblical direction of the church. Ron is the one and sole member of the Church and so decides anything and everything. No one puts a cap on what Ron is paid. In point of fact it is very likely that even Ron does not place a “salary” amount on Ron as he takes what he see’s as appropriate at the time and adds it to his account(s), US banking or Swiss or Cayman or otherwise.
    No oversite at all.
    For someone that thinks we are all doomed in the next 2 years or less he is building up quite a nest egg and pointedly not selling off his house to fund his church.
    Now, how much money goes to ministry and how much to Ron?
    Who knows? How many other forms of government would you trust this arrangement in? Would “Zero” be to high a number?

    🙂

  • AggieAtheist says:

    “I question why ‘God’s two witnesses’ would put together a collection of fine wines from around the word on the brink of ‘the final time, times & half- times’.”

    Drinking is the only vice allowed in the church, one that its members quite often exercise in great excess. (It ain’t called “the Feast of Booze” for nothin’, y’know.)

  • DRMR says:

    Regarding Ron Weinland seizing control of the church:

    Not long ago, when I was in church, if someone told me about the things that Ron Weinland is doing, and that it looks like he’s in it for the power, $$$$, and lifestyle, I would have said “Oh no, that can’t be true, not one of God’s chosen ministers”.

    And we know that he’s a “true minister, chosen by God, because he was approved by Mr. Armstrong, and this is God’s true church, etc., etc.”.

    Boy oh boy, the veil (or the wool) that can be pulled over our eyes.

    Even now , I wonder where to draw the line, between how much he truly believes in what he’s telling people, and how much he is knowingly “fleecing the flock” in order to support his lifestyle and future income/retirement.

    Maybe it’s a little of both. After looking at it, a couple of things that seem to ring true (to me anyway).

    1. It wouldn’t make sense to think that he totally believes his “prophecies” about 2012, and the trumpets, and all of that, because he knows he’s been wrong before. Having to revise “time lines” and all of that. And so it’s logical to assume that even he doesn’t buy into it totally. So why not have a contingency plan?

    2. He’s 60 yrs old, give or take, and judging by how long people live these days, he’ll probably be around when he’s 70.
    Just trying to get into his thinking. How’s he going to support himself and Laura, at their age, and with his unique kind of “resume”?

    Well, the church has worked out quite well so far, all these years. Seize control of the church?

    Darn rights he’s gonna seize control of the church!

    And this assessment may not be right on. But I bet it’s not that far off.

    I can see it now, “ughh, God has revealed to me that I didn’t have the right understanding about 2012, but He is now revealing to me, and correcting me, about what’s really going to happen”.

    And I realize it’s what a lot of you already know. So much of this is still new to me.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    DRMR:
    Regarding #1, I tend to believe that he’s drinking his own Flavor-Aid given the spending that he has to be doing on Google to drive the web traffic to his site. At the same time, I believe that he’s not adverse to living well during the lead-up to his demise in the streets of Jerusalem. So in other words: like you — both. If he were after the church purely as a cash cow, it makes more sense to continue milking it with the end always 5 to 10 years off rather than setting hard dates.

    Regarding #2, he just turned 60 on May 30. Don’t know if he participated in the Social Security system or exempted himself on religious basis. Another consideration is that he had a heart attack 4 years ago. I think he ordained Laura as prophetess and put her over the church as a contingency for two possibilities:
    (1) the IRS puts him away for awhile, then she can run the church and keep it together for him while he’s gone at his direction via prison visits, or
    (2) he has another, final heart attack then she can live into her golden years as the head of a church.

    And yeah, either way, he needs to have a church. He quotes HWA as saying that whoever controls the money controls the church.

  • DRMR says:

    Mike (DDTFA) says:
    “If he were after the church purely as a cash cow, it makes more sense to continue milking it with the end always 5 to 10 years off rather than setting hard dates.”

    I see what your are saying. That by giving 2012 as the end, he (Ron) is kind of putting a time limit on his cash cow.
    And no doubt, he IS sticking his neck out there by prophesying 2012 as the end.

    Mike (DDTFA) says:
    “(1) the IRS puts him away for awhile, then she can run the church and keep it together for him while he’s gone at his direction via prison visits”

    So do you think there’s a good chance the IRS will bring charges, and that he will have to do some time?

    This is why I ask: Because if he truly believes that he and Laura (as the two witnesses) are going to end up dead in Jerusalem in 2012, he must not think that he is going to spend too long in jail. He has to be out in time to make it to Jerusalem.

    Plus, he’s going to need some time to be calling down those plagues, “as often as he will”, as well as breathing some fire on his enemies, unless he thinks he can do that from his jail cell.

    And I don’t say that to be funny (although it IS funny); I find it fascinating to try and determine (through logical deduction) what might be going on in his head, and how he is looking at the next couple of years.

  • Mike (DDTFA) says:

    It’s hard to say for sure. The IRS will not publicize the results of their investigation and they won’t be known unless and until the case goes to court. That said, I think there’s a good chance that the IRS will be able to build a case that will put him away. I rather doubt that he has filed the necessary forms for his Swiss bank accounts, even if they don’t have a case for tax evasion. Indications are that the investigation is continuing, from Ronnie’s own statements. If they’re still investigating now over a year after starting it, I rather doubt it will be dropped for lack of prosecution potential.

    Ron was able to spiritualize the failure of the first timeline, he’s been able to spiritualize and redirect the lack of a Great Tribulation (ie the 4th Thunder = the 1st Trumpet). If the IRS convinces the US Attorney to bring charges, he’ll find a way to somehow spiritualize that and integrate it into a 3rd timeline if he goes to jail. If he manages to beat the rap, or even if the IRS decides it would not be able to make a case, he would spiritualize that too — God protected the Witness OR he said something that protected himself. As far as the lack of power, he’s managed to delay expectations for that until the 5th Trumpet. He just has to delay expectations for the 5th Trumpet.

    Somehow he’ll manage to continue to control the church whatever the IRS does.